How infiltrating datalinks and tech stealing should work

[Zeiter]

As it is, a probe team can access an entire faction's datalinks or research files from just one base, whether it's a huge core megalopolis, or a piddly little base off in the fringes of the faction. This causes probe teams to be massed-produced and stationed at every single base. This just doesn't seem right. Probe teams should be a specialty unit, not one that makes up half of your empire's military. Thus, here are some modifications that would correct this. Unfortunately, some of these modifications are unfeasible due to hardcoding, but here they are anyway:

*Make probe teams cost more. Remember, these are spies, secret agents, 007 types that you can't just draft off the street. You've got to train them a lot.

*Probe teams should only be able to download an entire faction's datalinks from the HQ base. How it would work is, a probe team could download any single base's datalinks from any base. This infiltration would show the economy, production, and base operations screen just for that base. Thus, you'd have to piece together information about a faction either through multiple infiltrations from different bases, or by infiltrating the HQ, where you gain total infiltration (as it is now).

*Tech stealing success rates need to be drastically lowered. Tech stealing would be on par with an assassination attempt in terms of difficulty. In fact, an assassination attempt would probably be easier, because you could pull it off in public, whereas to steal a tech, you'd have to gain access to top secret governmental labs facilities. So, I'm thinking for an elite probe team, the success rate should be at least 50%, 37%. And then a base with security interlocks should be really hard to steal from, something like 10%, 0%.

*Mind controlling should cost a little bit more. Just think about it: You're asking an entire battalion (or city) to suddenly revolt and switch sides. How much money would it take to convince 50% of New York city residents to revolt and become a part of China? A lot!This should really only be possibly if the cities are in drone riots. Thus, maybe the baseline cost should be triple, but a city in a drone riot gets an 80% discount, as opposed to the somewhere around 50% discount it now gets. And units whose home base is rioting should be easier to mind control (if this isn't the case already).

I think these changes would make probe team usage more along the lines of how it was originally envisioned - as an asymetrical threat carried out by only a handful of units. As it is now, probe teams are massed produced by the dozens. The gameplay wasn't intended to be this way, I am sure.

[BlackCat]

Probe team activity has always been a little courious to me.

First of all it should be a secret operation. None the less i get a message from the victim when the attack is executed !

Second, you are right - mind controlling a whole base high pop and many units should have extremely high costs - if ever possible unless it is on the verge of total riot.

Third. I'm not shure i agree in that it's only local data you should get. That contradicts messages as "overload. All accuired research data is lost - maybe you should build more net.." (Can't remember the correct message). This indicates that if you get a plugin in one network node then you should have access to all. This again is is a contradiction - if you have access to the whole network, why can't you then download all information about tech ? Of course if stealing tech means physical access to blueprints and other HW then it make sense but wouldn't that be on "the net" a couple of centuries in the future ?

I have never myself used it - mostly because i cannot predict the costs (and usually uses other means to catch a base). Does anybody know the calculations behind a takeover ?

[Zeiter]

I'm not talking about tech aquisition being local. That would be the same as it is now, where you can get it from any base. The success rates would be lower, though.

What I was talking about making local was the infiltration stuff. I think that would really make gameplay better.

[fender]

I agree and then some. Probe teams are the lowest of the low. I will not use them. It doesn't even come close to what would really go on.

I short they should be very, very expensive, and have a much lower success rate. What they can do should also be changed. Taking over a city is just insane, destroying base facilities the way they do it's just nuts.

Tech stealing is a real sore spot with me. Maybe if the city was in a state of unrest/drone riots, I could see some computer tech or scientist selling out tech to "the other side".

I also think that you should be able to protect yourself against attacks with techs that don't exist in the game that would give you the same effects as the HSA.

[Natalinasmpf]

Actually, a city with drone riots halves the probe team cost for takeover for that base. Generally I think, "mind control" should be the equivalent of spreading dissent, and thus drones, propaganda, and when there is a drone riot, the oppurtunity for takeover begins.

Infiltration should also wear off after 10-30 years (even 50) UNLESS Governor or Empath Guild. And yes infiltration should just work for that base. It actually might work in favour of the enemy though. Higher morale at every time one infiltrates, when one can't afford to mind control, nothing to sabotage or steal.

I think probe teams should be spread into different classes. Generally, the original probe team is bad at probing. At disciplined, the probe team only has a 35% success rate, 70% at Elite. Selected targets even lower However, if you give it the "Spy training" ability, chances for infiltration and procuring research is doubled. "Saboteur" - better chances at damaging buildings or assasination. "Charlatan/Propaganda Artist" - better at inciting drone riots and mind control.

Giving it the "saboteur" ability And then we would have different SP's covering immunity or increased reaction to them. And different techs for these abilities, and so on. HSA should increase the costs of hacking and infiltration very high. Telepathic Matrix should make it harder to spread propaganda and take over bases. Already, recreation commons would be a good safeguard.

No, I don't think their costs should be increased. Or perhaps, doubled, and the ability cost is also significant. Polymorphic (because you usually don't equp probe teams with polymorphic when they FIGHT each other ) should be an earlier version of algorithmic enhancement, that taken together, would be multiplied.

[Alinestra Covelia]

Re: How infiltrating datalinks and tech stealing should work

Originally posted by Zeiter
*Tech stealing success rates need to be drastically lowered. Tech stealing would be on par with an assassination attempt in terms of difficulty.

Techsteal is one thing that I think Civ3 managed to get right. I like their system, where the effort takes several years to fully resolve, and costs a lot of money.

[favetvshows1x3]

Re: How infiltrating datalinks and tech stealing should work

Originally posted by Zeiter
*Tech stealing success rates need to be drastically lowered. Tech stealing would be on par with an assassination attempt in terms of difficulty. In fact, an assassination attempt would probably be easier, because you could pull it off in public, whereas to steal a tech, you'd have to gain access to top secret governmental labs facilities.

Whoa! Stealing tech would be on par with, say, Mission: Impossible, or even Ocean's Eleven. Assassination is much harder as it has to be incredibly stealthy, and a lot of planning has to be done, such as knowing exactly where the person is at a certain time. Sure, tech stealing is a little too easy, so that could be lowered, but assassination should be next to impossible.
BTW, what do the two percentages mean? Are they the success rate, and the chance of escaping a failed mission?

[Zeiter]

They are the success rate and the chance of escaping. I'm not sure if it's possible to fail the mission but still escape. I'm trying to think if I've had that happen before. If it has, then the probability of that happening isn't very good.

An assassination of, say, Chairman Yang would be next to impossible, yes, but an assassination of just some researcher would be about as tough as it is now, I think.

[Commy]

Consider it this way. All bases are essentially attached onto a network, a mini Internet, if you will. All it takes is one access to that network to infiltrate the whole thing. If you can access a computer 3000 miles away just by having a modem, chances are 200 years from now you can do the same thing...

[Zeiter]

Hmmm, yes, I suppose, but from a gameplay perspective it would work much better to just be able to infiltrate the local datalinks.

[Natalinasmpf]

Yes, but the networks have "containing mechanisms" that can secure an area, seal off data coming from a base, etc. That is why you can only steal one tech when conquering an entire base, for example.

An entire operation of infiltration, place bugs, etc. takes a long time, and by the time that finishes, there is no more time to infiltrate others, for example, as the networks will be sealed off...

The problem with Zak's networks is that they are so open that sometimes these mechanisms don't even work that well....hence its easier to gain data.

[favetvshows1x3]

True, Yang's assassintation would be as close to impossible is it can be without a 0% chance (in Dragon Sun, he had 99 different bedrooms and chose one at random every night!)(so, maybe it even is 1 0% chance), but still, bases are likely to protect (especially) their top researchers.
And you can fail and escape (happened once or twice to me), but chances are, if you are able to escape a failed mission, you're likely to succeed in the mission anyway.

[Quezacotl06]

If u infiltrate some1's datalinks, you should also be granted bonus research points, because ur feeding off laboratory information just like u feed of ur own labs.

And if tech stealing was any harder, miriam's ability to fight would be reduced drasticaly. If anything, I think negative probe should affect offensive probe action, not just on d, y'know?

[Ka Plewy]

I wonder if the wealth of information obtained by infiltrating the datalinks is because the factions are based on ideology.
Those who share an ideology are unlikely to betray it, but as time passes on Chiron people are born and those people may come to have different ideological beliefs than their parents, despite what they were taught in the creches. Some may not want to move, because of proximity to their family, but their ideology is closer to another faction. These are the people that infiltrating the datalinks detects and seeks out. IT always works this way. However, here on earth, we have nationality and patriotism, and ideology to contend with. As the recent off-topic discussions have highlighted, many of our differences seem to develop more along lines of nationality than just along lines of ideology. We have more connections to our environment than the typical Chironian(?) would. Ideology is always the weakest, and you'll note that whenever any country is confronted, ideologies will tend to merge for a time for the common good/defense. In a world where there is only ideology, and constant stress, who wouldn't be suprised if Morgan bought a Believer who's belief wasn't so devout, a Gaian who preferred Dee's looks over her beliefs, a University mad scientest with all the energy credits he needs to fund his wacky experiments into somethng called transcendence?

While it may be easy to infiltrate the datalinks, or perform other probe team operations, I'm able to understand how easy it would be in a world where societies are based entirely on ideology.

Just some wild musing...

[Commy]

Perhaps they should have something that destroys infiltrators. Or maybe they should have underground tunnels that geosynchronous pods couldn't see...

And heck, how can you destroy a perimiter defense in a Hive base? What 16 man group can lift an entire base that is underground and put it on the surface? That is one heck of a trick...