Don't tell me native life has SAM capability, and not just locusts?

[BlackCat]

There is a point in the argument that choppers are too strong, especially if done my way since i use a different strategy than appear to be common, but that again is the game rules.

My choppers are always state of the art with full armour, weapon, clean and the best reactor. I almost never loose a chopper because they can take almost any unit out, and if they get too damaged to a new attack i return for repair. If there should be an AAA unit with fusion reactor or stronger i just send a missile first. It's much cheaper to repair than build (free :-). To or three (13-4-12*2 clean) choppers can eliminate almost all opponents (tougher versions make eaven worse havoc, but i think that is a fitting level of capacity when starting a counterstrike (you can have sevaral passive vendettas where you just fight off attacks while you build your own strength unit you are ready)).

I guess its an old argue - heavy but expensive units against light but cheap - i haven't dig that deep into the archives, but i am in for the heavy. The light isnt that cheap anyway - it takes 80 min to build a 13-1-4-12*2 chopper and 170 to build a 13-4-12*2. It's more than double, yes, but there are a couple of advantages - they can attack more and they are thougher at defend, and if you are carefull about repair (of course you have CBA ?) then they can quickly be returned to service.

The question about range - well, as i see it they have a very long range ! It's right that it might be nessecary to bulid a couple of bases to attack, but that i surely would do anyway. How else will you get your missiles into firing range ? Of course it's possible to use ships to get a foothold but then again you can in a couple of turns get the choppers to this place which you cannot be shure your penetrators can.

I might have come a little out of track - maybe a thread about chopper strategy was an idea ?

[Flubber]

I would NEVER armour a chopper. I will assume your math is correct

13-1-12*2 at 80 minerals
13-4-12*2 at 170 minerals

Give me twice of many of the first variety EVERY time. I can't remember the last time I put armor on a chopper ( unless it happened to be free) and I lose lots and lots of units in a successful attack. In fact it is often the strategy to send a chopper on a suicide run killing units, formers and crawlers. An impact chopper costs what 20 minerals and I can get 3-4 crawlers in one run before dying

While repairing is cheaper than building, to repair choppers, you have to either finish a turn in a base ( severely limiting their range) or find a way to protect them. . .. and there is no way to protect them if they are in the open

The armor is almost irrelevant as my 13-1-12*2 chopper would make mincemeat of your 4 level armor. heck my 80 mineral chopper would kill two of your 170 mineral variety and might even get a third .. . and then self destruct itself to damage another.


Widespread use of missiles IMHO is even more foolhardy. The mineral cost of these is HUGE and you are almost always killing something that cost much less.

Of course in my thinking you are facing an opponent with tech parity and a similar industrial capacity to your own. If we are talking mammoth tech leads or huge leads in developments, military tactics almost become irrelevant.


A couple of more points

1. Don't assume you get the CBA-- I play other humans and its never a given that you get it and you CAN win without it. Any method can beat the AI so don't use them as a good yardstick.

2. To me there is hardly even a debate on the heavy expensive unit versus more less expensive ones.
I would take a best-1-1 and some 1-best-1s over a best-best-1 EVERY EVERY time--

[BlackCat]

Flubber may be rigth about attacking, there you don't get that much, but a chopper without shielding is just dead meat when defending. Imagine : you have a couple of hardcore choppers and a drop unit. The choppers clear a number of enemy bases and and the drop thingie takes the open bases and finishes in the most appropriate, the other conquered bases needs protetction and thats where your choppers come in.

With armour they can take more beating than without so it is absolutely worth the minerals to equip them with that. The problem is of course ireelvant in the next round where the base protecting unit has been build.

Of course i limit their range of action. They must not go farther than a secure base is in range, but that could also be a newly concured base! Ex. 4 choppers hammer down the defence;a cruiser capture the base and the choppers enter the base for repair. That gives a long range with support.

I don't think i wrote anything about widespread use of missiles. I said i would use them against bases protected by heavy AAA units, so no waste here. I've seen situations where a chopper(elite) didn't make a scratch in the defence where a missile solves the problem. So use missiles but with care - they are expensive. Another thing - I would never attack without EG or probeteam actions - i have some senses left :-)

It's right you can be sure to get CBA, but that is not the real problem. If you don't get it, then you have to have more backupunits to proceed the attack while the dameged are repaired.

Flubber also claims thats it make sense to kill anything you see. I agree to Knocking down units that are a treat and crawlers, but i would never take a former unless it's in my way. Why not take a former ? well a former may make an improvement, but will that be critical ? If you intend to take the supporting base in a couple of rounds, then no - don't touch it. It may give your atttacker a scratch that needs repair, and maybe the former makes something usefull for yourself when taking over the base. Furthermore - those units will degrade an enemybases production. Done the right way you can force the opponent to stop production and scrapping units due to lack of supportive minerals.

Again to Flubber:

No - don't assume you get BCA - play with the possibilities you have and use them. But when we are talkning about AI then it should be possible to get it.

The hardcore unit against the massive production isn't as easy as that. For me it seems i can always knock out any attempt to or defend against any massive unit assembly.

Maybethe AI is too easy and i need harder competition.

[Sikander]

You really shouldn't be in a position where your chopper is defending anyway. Either you wipe the floor with the enemy and they have nothing left with which to counterattack, or you assume that your chopper is on a one way trip and its purpose is to kill more than it's worth. Cheap suicide choppers often don't live long enough to cost support, or only cost a couple of minerals before they are utilized.

The same idea goes for land units as well once you have the mobility to bring them to bear soon after they are built. Units in this game are best seen as ammunition rather than weapons. Civ warfare is attrition, and the paradigms used by the first ICS conquerers in Civ 1 still hold true.

[Chaos Theory]

BlackCat: The AI uses swarms rather than expensive units, but it does so badly, since its swarms consist of 2-2-1s in 2300 or something stupid like that. I agree with much of what Flubber has said, except that in most games it's not as simple as making your chopper take out more than its worth. Most games have more than two players, and you have to consider how far ahead everyone else is getting. Therefore, choppers have to pull several times their cost.

Still, unless your choppers are launching from very near their targets (which can happen when defending), you might as well consider them dead when they land, unless they're hard to get at, such as in the water. There's also the self-destruct exploit to try to get even more bang for your mineral.

[Natalinasmpf]

What IS the self-destruct exploit?

[Chaos Theory]

You can self-destruct a unit to do a substantial amount of damage to all (hostile?) adjacent units. The amount of damage is:

.5*weapon*reactor, where the weapon and reactor values are taken from the self-destructing units. Thus, a fusion-fusion chopper (10-1-something*2) does 10 damage to all adjacent units, regardless of their armor. This, of course, is enough to destroy any fission unit, which includes formers and crawlers. This damage pierces stacks much like artillery, except there is no counter-measure like artillery defense.

Units in bases and (IIRC) units in bunkers are immune to this damage. Therefore, to defend against this, either

1) Stay out of range of choppers. This is almost impossible, since a chopper can fly for almost 4 turns before crashing, and choppers move at least 8.

2) Keep units in bases/bunkers. This makes terraforming and crawling much more difficult, and makes waging a land or sea war almost impossible. An air war is still viable since those units reach their targets typically in 1 turn, and self-destructing a chopper to kill a single unit en route isn't very profitable.
Drop units are also still useful, since they aren't vulnerable while en route.

3) Stomp your opponent before he gets MMI

4) Agree to not use self-destruction

[Natalinasmpf]

*imagines singularity string disruptor unit*



Anyway, never knew that. Does it affect psi units, too? Hmm friendly units don't get hurt, either, I tried that before, but didn't know the difference. They are sort of cheap suicide bombers, but in that case, morale should be the deciding factor...

What about rockiness and such?

Also, reminds me: do units in bunkers heal, or aircraft in airbases? (Wonders if there should be a sea equivalent)

[Flubber]

Rockiness, sensors and shielding are irrelevant to the self-destruct tactic. Its simple in that adjacent units lose weapon times reactor divided by 2 hitpoints. It does affect native life but artillery is much more cost effective against natives.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Chaos Theory
BlackCat: The AI uses swarms rather than expensive units, but it does so badly, since its swarms consist of 2-2-1s in 2300 or something stupid like that. I agree with much of what Flubber has said, except that in most games it's not as simple as making your chopper take out more than its worth. Most games have more than two players, and you have to consider how far ahead everyone else is getting. Therefore, choppers have to pull several times their cost.

Ahh now we are talking the bigger picture here. Its usually silly to go to war with and industrial/ technological equal if there are other human controlled factions that are even close to you.

To me, war in a PBEM only makes sense if

1. You have some sort of advantage in quality or quantity or type of units that will make the war profitable. You may decide to wage a limited war to just gain a certain limited objective. OR

2. There is only one realistic rival out there. Then is IS just a cost-benefit thing for any given attack


WAR in a PBEM makes no sense to me if

a) Someone other than your target is the clear leader- don't kill off your allies when faced with a behemoth. OR

b) if your supposed target is as strong as you, or close in strength and there are other factions than can surpass you.


Only war if there is a clear advantage in it. In my Pbems I love it when an opponent spends a whack of resources to gain a few really crappy AI bases. They win the war but get so far surpassed on tech and infrastructure that their winning war can cost them the game

[Flubber]

Originally posted by BlackCat
Flubber may be rigth about attacking, there you don't get that much, but a chopper without shielding is just dead meat when defending. Imagine : you have a couple of hardcore choppers and a drop unit. The choppers clear a number of enemy bases and and the drop thingie takes the open bases and finishes in the most appropriate, the other conquered bases needs protetction and thats where your choppers come in.

With armour they can take more beating than without so it is absolutely worth the minerals to equip them with that. The problem is of course ireelvant in the next round where the base protecting unit has been build.

.

So lets get this straight

1. Your choppers first clear a "number of enemy bases"-- I assume they take damage-- and significant damage-- if they don't you are facing a pushover where tactics are irrelevant

2. You see using these armored choppers as temporary garrisons as a good idea

Well where do I start

a) For the mineral cost of one of your superchoppers , I can build an attack only chopper and a drop AA unit. My chopper will attack as well as yours and my defender will defend better since he can have BOTH less damage and AA attributes. Even using your own tactics ( which I wouldn't) my two unit combination is superior for facing the counterattack

b) I rarely capture every base I can when on the attack. My tactic would be more along the lines of pick the base I want, empty it and then garrison it with enough defenders and probes that it can be held and move some undamaged choppers in so I am able to attack again on the next turn.


So if I had a force of a similar mineral cost as yours-- 1 drop unit and two fo your best-best choppers -- I would have instead

1 drop unit ( assume same as yours)
2-3 attack choppers ( same weapon but no armour)
1-3 additional drop AAA garrison troops
and as many cheapo choppers as I could bring with my additional minerals depending on the circumstances


On attack or defence, this force composition would be superior and my only downside would be increased support costs- ( I assume in each case we would bring ample/ sufficient probe defenders

[Flubber]

Originally posted by BlackCat

Flubber also claims thats it make sense to kill anything you see. I agree to Knocking down units that are a treat and crawlers, but i would never take a former unless it's in my way. Why not take a former ? well a former may make an improvement, but will that be critical ? If you intend to take the supporting base in a couple of rounds, then no - don't touch it. It may give your atttacker a scratch that needs repair, and maybe the former makes something usefull for yourself when taking over the base. Furthermore - those units will degrade an enemybases production. Done the right way you can force the opponent to stop production and scrapping units due to lack of supportive minerals.

.

You are SO obviously not used to playing against other humans.

Lets just do a few points

1. I don't necessarily advocate killing everything EVERY time. Its situational. I often advocate killing everything but it depends on the type of attack. Sometimes I want to degrade my opponent's infrastructure and have no real intent to capture thier bases. Other times, other goals.

2. Why kill a former??? Well you don't assume it is just going sit there and make something for you now, do you? Only the AI does that. An enemy former in a good players hands will be doing one of these things when the attack comes

a) tearing up roads or improvements-- your attack plan obviously assumes roads if one unit is to take multiple bases after they are emptied

b) moving into a base and possibly being upgraded with armour OR

c) being disbanded for minerals to build something better

Personally, if it makes no difference to whether I can get to a safe haven, I will kill the former and not mind the 10% or so damage I might take in doing it

[Flubber]

Originally posted by BlackCat

Again to Flubber:

No - don't assume you get BCA - play with the possibilities you have and use them. But when we are talkning about AI then it should be possible to get it.

The hardcore unit against the massive production isn't as easy as that. For me it seems i can always knock out any attempt to or defend against any massive unit assembly.

Maybethe AI is too easy and i need harder competition.

I'll say this again-- The AI can be beaten senseless with the most rudimentary tactics. It seems incapable of thinking strategically-- heck it can have 50 impact noodles flying around and NEVER attack the base with only 2 3AA defenders. It sees it can't win a battle and never tries, not realizing that at a cost of 2-3 planes they can damage the defenders enough to make winning likely if not inevitable.

Blackcat-- if you want to talk tactics with me, please assume competent, strong opposition. Tactics are irrelevant if assuming stupidity on the other side.

I wonder how many times when you used your 13-4-12*2 , you faced enemies with a 1-<4>-1*2 inside an aerocomplex with a sensor because its this type of opposition that highlights the flaw in your super-chopper strategy. The defense strength of this relatively cheap unit would be 4X2x2x1.25=20 against air attack. Oh and the defender might be every bit as elite as the attacker. You would need to add nerve gas to your chopper to even have a reasonable chance of winning the one on one battle between these units (and that has major repercussions). I guess if you faced defenses like these, it probably would not be worthwhile to attack.

ITs these numbers where defence inside a base is much stronger than possible attack ( and its even reasonable to see armor values of 5 and 6 ) that makes war of conquest against an equally strong faction difficult. Thats why I have often seen wars between PBEMers where bases hardly get taken ( any base captured would be an immediate probe target anyway). The war might be simply about damaging the opponent enough that your production surpasses theirs.



It does sound like the AI is not enough competition for you. Once you can beat the AI on transcend level without difficulty, the best options seem to be

1. PBEM-- its the best challenge but slow
2. Self restrictions-- Win with no crawlers, or only building one base, or with no formers, or without allowing yourself to attack anything not INSIDE your territory

3. Play some of the scenarios floating around-- many of them give the AI a substantial head start

4. My favorite-- the switching teams challenge-- Play a faction as well as you can until you lead clearly in the powergraph and then use the scenario editor to take over the last place faction and bring them to first and then do it again.It is a real battle to beat out the monsters you have created.I have only done 2 switches IIRC but I am tempted to try for 3. The problem is you can run out of time

[livid imp]

Originally posted by Flubber

The problem is you can run out of time

Makes me wonder....has anyone ever made a hack to allow unlimited time?

[Commy]

I you have activated the Scenario Editor, does it really matter?