Comparative Transcend Times

[Santiago_Claus]

I just finished a Zak game using all the best techniques I know -- with two exceptions -- and in 2257 won a Transcend victory with all techs and all SP's.

The first exception is wide base placement: no 2 bases overlapped > 3 tiles.

The second exception is that I built my secondary SSC in a base that received no trade income, not realizing that trade income is calculated only from the energy harvested by workers. The Network Backbone was thus largely wasted.

The map was large with average landmass ratio.

The victory conditions were all standard except for directed research and look first, and only the Transcend victory condition was enabled.

Difficulty settings were the Apolyton standards: Ironman, Transcend, Abundant Lifeforms.

The score, for what it's worth, was 1007%, but I wasn't really going for score. (I lack the patience to optimize a game for score ... ugh!)

I consider this an average game by Apolyton standards -- provided one uses wide base placement.

Using this as a benchmark, I'd really like to know the best and average Transcend times for those of you who use close-packed bases. (As with score I lack the patience to do this myself ...)

[Petek]

Zsozso was probably the best at "fast transcend" games. This thread discusses his transcending in MY 2194 on a huge map:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=74735

And this is how he transcended in 54 turns on a tiny map:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=77308

[Santiago_Claus]

Wow, those guys really went nuts.

While zso's 57-turn Transcend is truly amazing, it doesn't really help me much since it was with an ultra-tiny map and factions designed specifically for fast tech development.

The huge map Transcend isn't a solid benchmark either, as it was played at Citizen level.

57 turns ... wow!

Korn's insight is a little more universally applicable: part of getting to Transcendence quickly involves getting the AI to do some of the research for you. I totally overlooked that.

That still doesn't address where I'm trying to go with this, which is in relative terms the advantage of ICS over wider-spaced highland bases. (Did I mention I hate micromanagement?)

That in mind, I'm still interested in "average Transcend times", particularly for ICS developers, for reference. On a large map, at Transcend difficulty, with normal (i.e. non-repeating) AI faction leaders.

[Chaos Theory]

I can get to Transcendence in roughly 130 turns, without the help of the AIs. I usually ICS, either tightly (i.e. rigid spacing, 4 tiles/base) or somewhat loosely (6-8 tiles/base).

[CEO Aaron]

If you're really determined to vault ahead in the tech lead, you have to cram your bases tightly together early on. Tech costs factor in the total amount of discovered tech on the map, iirc. This makes early energy income pivotal is fast tech ascendance. Even if your peripheral bases are more spread out, the turn-advantage dividends of tight base spacing cannot be ignored.

[Santiago_Claus]

"High-tech parking lot." Ol' Vel has a way with words, doesn't he?

In other news, I've gone through about 75 turns on a meagre 4 bases, thanks to a brutal early war with the Caretakers.

My Usurper legions thrown against her Mount Planet Volcano fortress, and she surrounded by mines a mineral special with her industry running a +5 advantage ... and I kept asking, "Where is she getting all those troops?"

A dirty, grinding war, nerve gas shrouding Mount Planet like the fogs of Mount Fuji -- not that Marr would know about Mt. Fuji.

Rolling snakeeyes against the dreaded mod-3 rule on the restriction-lifting tech ... I don't even have Gene Splicing yet, and techs are running 13 turns per. The slog to EnvEco is gonna be a long one.

It's definitely not a game they'll be putting on display in the strategy guides ... but it is the sort of game that we love the smell of in the morning, isn't it?

[Lazerus]

I utterly suck with the builders, i can transcend about 2230-2235 with Yang (and no the AI aren't modified so 99% of everything researched is mine since they're normally too far away or don't have good enough techs for the effort of probing).
Packed bases, ICS and then switching to all specialists asap. Quantity over quality

[Santiago_Claus]

That seems to be the most efficient way to win, confound it.

In other news, the mighty Usurpers have finally spiked the Caretakers, and in 2207 got Gene Splicing! Now before you catch your breath, the mod-3 rule once again reared its ugly head. * sigh * No EE for at least another 10 turns or so.

Marr can't run Democracy, either. At least with the Nexus I'm getting a little extra research. Maybe I can invent a sauce that goes well with those tender, juicy Gaians I've seen puttering around the Progenitor Islands ...

[binTravkin]

Lazerus what do you build in your Hive ICS bases?
Only rectanks & childrens creches?

[CEO Aaron]

I can't answer for Laz, but I do know that as a builder Yang, you want to use Wealth to gain the additional industry and take your economy penalty down to only -1 energy in your capital. Once energy restrictions are lifted, boreholes provide the bulk of your raw energy, and the rest of your econ and lab income is from specialists.

Specialists are very, VERY powerful, and do benefit from lab and econ-magnifying facilities. Once you have Environmental Economics, Yang's economy penalty becomes largely irrelevant. So you can build Network Nodes, Energy Banks, you name it. Limiting yourself to only Tanks and Creches is what you do if you only build bases to produce and support your military. If youre serious about transcendence you need research, and research requires facilities.

How do you get the most out of your research? Build biolabs and network nodes, in that order. With just 2 librarians, you'll see 9 labs for 2 ecs per turn, and that's not even including your energy from worked squares.

[Velociryx]

Thanks Santi....

-=Vel=-
(must dream up more!)

[Commy]

I won a transcend game in the year 2102, but I cheated, so does that count?

Oh, by the way, I was playing as Miriam on a huge map, in case you were wondering...

[binTravkin]

I can't answer for Laz, but I do know that as a builder Yang, you want to use Wealth to gain the additional industry and take your economy penalty down to only -1 energy in your capital. Once energy restrictions are lifted, boreholes provide the bulk of your raw energy, and the rest of your econ and lab income is from specialists.

Specialists are very, VERY powerful, and do benefit from lab and econ-magnifying facilities. Once you have Environmental Economics, Yang's economy penalty becomes largely irrelevant. So you can build Network Nodes, Energy Banks, you name it. Limiting yourself to only Tanks and Creches is what you do if you only build bases to produce and support your military. If youre serious about transcendence you need research, and research requires facilities.

How do you get the most out of your research? Build biolabs and network nodes, in that order. With just 2 librarians, you'll see 9 labs for 2 ecs per turn, and that's not even including your energy from worked squares.

Have you ever tried ICSing hive CEO Aaron?

I tried it yesterday SP & you know -> I have no commerce, very low (0) effic & -1 ECON

How do you expect me to support all those facilities before Fuision Power when I can switch all my librarians to engineers to gain that +3 econ from each?

I have only 8 ecs per base as raw output, which is in 50% bases halved by inefficency thus yielding 4..
half of it is delivered to economy, so my base is outputting 2-4 ecs per turn..

With that money Im only able to barely support 2 facilities!

& I need ecs also for other purposes!

Before Fusion, there's no way you can boost your research of 1 base by building facs if youre HIVE & ICSing!

I only build rectanks & creches in my bases & have to avoid hurrying them not to run in debt!

&thats a BUILDErR approach which, this time is also a Momentum approach as Im bulding more & more bases continuosly.

I build tanks, creche, garrison, 2 formers, 2 crawlers for
each base & then pump out CPs
Population of my bases never drops below 5 & never rises above..
If Im going to lose pop by building CP, I make a probe or crawler

& this boring approach all the way till Fusion & Orbital..

[CEO Aaron]

Boreholes, BinTravkin. You need to work a borehole or two per base, which will probably also require crawling a condenser/farm to balance out your nutrient input. With wealth, tanks, 4 worked forests and a borehole, your raw energy input is 12 energy, before inefficiency. With a river, energy special, monolith or landmark, you can get even more. That should be more than enough to pay for a couple of cheap facilities. Run your base population up to 7, to avoid expensive hab facilities, and you'll have 2 specialists to devote to either economy or research.

[Commy]

How about this:

We all play Morgan and forget about the Hive. Then there will be enough energy to do whatever you want.