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Do not fear, for I am with you; Do not anxiously look about you, for I am your God.-Isaiah 41:10
I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made - Psalms 139.14a
Also active on WePlayCiv. -
all the newbies have been going to CFC for the past few yearsComment
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I think VJ's hit the crux. Since I first started posting on OT, sometime around the start of 2003, I've seen almost no new faces. The vast majority of posts there are made by the regulars, people who've been there for years. We all now know each others opinions on almost everything. A few years ago there were vibrant debates on world issues, abortion, politics, etc. However these have all now been had. Moreover, the Polytubbies are getting older. Most people when I started on OTF were high school or uni based, however a lot of those are graduating and finding jobs, meaning they come here less. This isn't true across the board, but my guess is the average age of an OTer is older now than it was a few years ago.
When it comes to making a forum lively, you either need new content or new people. The former isn't really possible for an OT forum in any real way, so we need the latter.
I don't think postcount or anything else like that really comes into it. I don't think that helps attract newbies. Sadly, I'm not exactly sure what does. My guess is that a lot of people get to OT after being civ addicts and on topic posters for a bit, then venture out. Which to me means we need two things:
For on topic to start to appeal more to newbies than other sites like CFC - which means unique things (like ApolyCon), good coverage, especially of CivIV and a vibrant playing community. This is all pretty non-groundbreaking and stuff Poly's doing.
The other thing is for OTF not to be seen as the arch-enemy of on topic, but as two important parts of the same thing. Poly is one site, where people can discuss and play Civ games and anything else. OTF helps keep people here and on topic, as once someone temporarily loses interest in a game, the people, of which OTF is a huge part, keeps them here. I know I'd have left Poly a year or so ago when I stopped really playing SMAC if is wasn't for OTF, and yet now I'm looking at getting back into CivIV.
I think there's a pervasive attitude here that on topic and OTF are two different things, basically this is a site split into two, when really they can both help each other retain the interest of posters.
The bottom line is that Apolyton needs to attract newbies ahead of other civ sites. That means we need good content and a good community. We have both, but with the latter, we need to realise that we're one community, and also perhaps be more accepting of newbies.Smile
For though he was master of the world, he was not quite sure what to do next
But he would think of something
"Hm. I suppose I should get my waffle a santa hat." - KuciwalkerComment
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The other thing is for OTF not to be seen as the arch-enemy of on topic, but as two important parts of the same thing. Poly is one site, where people can discuss and play Civ games and anything else. OTF helps keep people here and on topic, as once someone temporarily loses interest in a game, the people, of which OTF is a huge part, keeps them here. I know I'd have left Poly a year or so ago when I stopped really playing SMAC if is wasn't for OTF, and yet now I'm looking at getting back into CivIV.
Co-Founder, Apolyton Civilization Site
Co-Owner/Webmaster, Top40-Charts.com | CTO, Apogee Information Systems
giannopoulos.info: my non-mobile non-photo news & articles blogComment
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This is indeed the crux. The reason for it is simple: CFC is higher up on Google. For some reason the mainstream gaming sites decided a few years ago that CFC was a better civ site than Apolyton and started linking just to them rather than to just us or both sites as they had done before whenever there was some civ-related news. This was at a time when CFC and Apolyton had equally good coverage in every way IMO (except that Apolyton's coverage was much broader), so I don't know what motivated this change, but it's clear it cost us a lot of points in Google's Page ranking and we dropped to page 2 or worse for the most common civ-related search terms (we were even at page 5 or 6 for a while for the term 'Civilization IV'). A lot of our external referrals come from Google, so not being on page 1 there hurts big time when it comes to drawing in new blood. And of course mainstream gaming sites themselves are also an important source of referrals, so them not linking to us anymore also hurts (though not as much as the Google ranking).Originally posted by VJ
all the newbies have been going to CFC for the past few years
The only way to remedy this is to make sure we have lots of people linking to us. Exclusive features like ApolyCon are a good way of doing so (we've gained a couple of spots on Google since the conference) and we will continue to look for new ideas. But the Apolyton staff is small and we all have busy lifes. As Drogue implicitly pointed out, both Dan and Markos were students when they started this site, as were most of the people helping them out back then. Now they and the current staff all have jobs, families and lifes to run, we don't have as much time as we used to.
If you guys, like us, want more traffic and more new blood for the site, help us out! When you see a civ-related news story (whether in the forums or on other sites), report it to a staff member. Reversely, if we have exclusive Civ news that might be of interest to mainstream gaming sites you might also frequent (like some of the ApolyCon videos), report it to them, so that they can link to us. If you have a good idea on how to improve our coverage, let us know, or (gasp!) start implementing it yourself (almost every aspect of our current Civ4 coverage started out as a forum thread in some form or another and was 'updraded' to a main site feature later -- even ApolyCon started out as just another forum thread with JohnT organising everything on his own). If you see a newbie asking a stupid newbie question, point him to the answer rather than yell at him for being a stupid n00b or DL (not nearly everyone does this of course but I've still seen it happen all to often) -- who knows, he might like it here and stick around to become a valuable new member. Apolyton has always been a lot more community-driven than content-driven, we can't run the site without you guys!Comment
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Originally posted by Locutus
If you guys, like us, want more traffic and more new blood for the site, help us out! [..] If you have a good idea on how to improve our coverage, let us know, or (gasp!) start implementing it yourself[...]
If you see a newbie asking a stupid newbie question, point him to the answer rather than yell at him for being a stupid n00b or DL... Apolyton has always been a lot more community-driven than content-driven, we can't run the site without you guys!
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Dan; Apolyton CSPolyCast Co-Host, Owner and Producer: entertaining | informing civ
>> PolyCast (Civ strategy), ModCast (Civ modding), TurnCast (Civ multiplay); One More Turn DramedyComment
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Does that mean we have to stop the Post Stats Game also?
I love being beaten by women - LorizaelComment
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NO!Originally posted by Zoid
Does that mean we have to stop the Post Stats Game also?
THEY!!111 OMG WTF LOL LET DA NOMADS AND TEH S3D3NTARY PEOPLA BOTH MAEK BITER AXP3REINCES
AND TEH GRAAT SINS OF THERE [DOCTRINAL] INOVATIONS BQU3ATH3D SMAL
AND!!1!11!!! LOL JUST IN CAES A DISPUTANT CALS U 2 DISPUT3 ABOUT THEYRE CLAMES
DO NOT THAN DISPUT3 ON THEM 3XCAPT BY WAY OF AN 3XTARNAL DISPUTA!!!!11!! WTFComment
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NEVAH!Do not fear, for I am with you; Do not anxiously look about you, for I am your God.-Isaiah 41:10
I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made - Psalms 139.14a
Also active on WePlayCiv.Comment
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Originally posted by DanQ
quote:
Originally posted by Locutus
If you guys, like us, want more traffic and more new blood for the site, help us out! [..] If you have a good idea on how to improve our coverage, let us know, or (gasp!) start implementing it yourself[...]
If you see a newbie asking a stupid newbie question, point him to the answer rather than yell at him for being a stupid n00b or DL... Apolyton has always been a lot more community-driven than content-driven, we can't run the site without you guys!
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Dan; Apolyton CS
Umm..meaning of course it meets the , hey, nice idea concept of the staff, heaven forbid someone have an idea and be given a shot, I mean, because someone else couldnt make it work, doesnt mean a new take on the presentation..
umm..just a thought
GrampsHi, I'm RAH and I'm a Benaholic.-rahComment
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Probably one problem is also the design, for instance the home page. That is the place that should give us the main pieces of information. Since this is the first place you visit if you are new to Apolyton. So what is the stuff you want to find. Well if you are looking for a civ site you want some certain things: You just bought this wonderfull new game called CivIV and you are always defeated by the AI. So you want to go as fast as possible to a place where some people are who could help. That is the forum. So you are looking to something like:
CivIV
--Forum
Of course this leads you to the CivIV forum and not to the main forum.
Another thing you could looking for is something new, because you played this game CivIV to the dead and you are looking for some mods. So you are looking for somthing like this:
CivIV
--Downloads
In this case you don't find something like this. Instead of this you find something called directory. Actually if someone wants to download something he looks for downloads and not directory. Maybe files is also be ok, but not as good as downloads.
So here would be the first suggestion for an improvement, actually this doesn't cost so much time, it is simply renaming the directory to downloads or to download center. Actually this just means to rename the links.
And finally if you are looking for new civ related stuff then you want to find some news and that should be centered on the home page. Instead of this you find there two forms one for logging in and another one for registration.
So the first thing you ask new people is to registrate. Well I would have myrads of accounts at nummerous places if I registrate on my first visit on a new site. Probably soon I don't remember all those account.
The first thing I want are news than some downloads and maybe the time comes when I want to participate in the forum discussion. And then I am looking for the registration form.
On a first glance you just see on the home page that the site is about civilization games and there is a forum, but no news and no downloads. Even the stuff there. Well on a second look you find the news, the little top pulldown box and the news center were normally the advertizement is placed, and so normally is ignored. But the download center is hidden under the term directory. And therefore no one finds this.
So comparing Apolyton and CivFanatics is that you find on CivFanatics the important stuff at a glance and on Apolyton not. So if you don't know both sites you have to conclude that CivFanatics is much better and Apolyton isn't worth to mention.
Well maybe the shortcommings of the home page makes me not to visit it very often.
Well I did the google check with Civilization 4:
Civilization IV gives rank 12 for civilization4.net
CivilizationIV gives rank 3 for civilization4.net
Civilization 4 gives rank 10 for civilization4.net
Civilization4 gives rank 2 for civilization4.net
So the civilization4.net domain was a pritty good idea. However I wasn't able to find apolyton.net in a realistic amount of time.
Well speaking about civilization4.net also the front page there has a much clearer layout. In the center we have the civ4 releated news. On the right we have the advertisement and on the left we have nothing. Well the nothing is not so cool. Actually there should be a little side menu that contains all the civ4 related lings we have at the top. And files should be renamed to downloads. Well at least files is a better term than directory.
In all civilization4.net shows that the homepage can be improved you already have the stuff there. So just someone needs to do it. Well and propably there is the problem.
-MartinCiv2 military advisor: "No complaints, Sir!"Comment
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Thanks Martin
Hope if our management reads this they decide if it will help or hinder, either way read it.
I still love Apolyton and love calling Apolyton home
Hi, I'm RAH and I'm a Benaholic.-rahComment
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Before I begin this 'first response', I must say that I am not dismissing your suggestions out of hand. There is always room for improvement and anyone who takes the time to make and articulate suggestions, and chooses to do so in a calm and civil fashion, will have their points considered. That is the case with you.
Certainly, you will see that I am not responding to all or necessarily most of the points you have made. Rather, what follows here are some immediate concerns of my own to what you have said.
- There is a level of subjectivity in terms of what is placed on a particular webpage and where. As such, some places where you say "should" in your post would be better rephrased as less of an absolute, i.e. "would be".
- Apolyton covers more than the 'direct' Civilization series. As such, the content and structure of our homepage needs to take this into account whereas a 'direct' Civ series only fansite does not.
You are forgetting the news headlines that make-up the right-hand column here.Originally posted by Martin Gühmann
On a first glance you just see on the home page that the site is about civilization games and there is a forum, but no news and no downloads. Even the stuff there. Well on a second look you find the news, the little top pulldown box and the news center were normally the advertizement is placed, and so normally is ignored.
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Dan; Apolyton CSPolyCast Co-Host, Owner and Producer: entertaining | informing civ
>> PolyCast (Civ strategy), ModCast (Civ modding), TurnCast (Civ multiplay); One More Turn DramedyComment
- There is a level of subjectivity in terms of what is placed on a particular webpage and where. As such, some places where you say "should" in your post would be better rephrased as less of an absolute, i.e. "would be".
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Dan
I am impressed as allways with your slightest touch of authority being displayed
This is why I enjoy Apolyton, aside from an occasional emotional human response by leadership here.....most all responses are handled very well.
I really enjoy how we can come forward and not get the the rubber stamp "If you dont like it leave" approach.
The response thus far from you would make many contemplate "how to" approach in assisting making this a wonderful growing and changing, but dedicated to the founding principles, civilization site!
Again, my thanks to offering us hope that we, the peasant working the fields, will be heard
Yours In Civin
Grandpa TrollHi, I'm RAH and I'm a Benaholic.-rahComment
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Actually I can only agree partly. It depends whether we are talking about content or whether we are are talking about structure. So let's talk about structure first, since this is your first concern.Originally posted by DanQ
- There is a level of subjectivity in terms of what is placed on a particular webpage and where. As such, some places where you say "should" in your post would be better rephrased as less of an absolute, i.e. "would be".
Of course we can present information in any kind of structure we want. But the question is whether the reader is able to perceive it in the structure we choose.
Most scientific texts are pretty hard to understand and that's because no scientists needs to know how to write a text to do science. And that's the reason why George D. Gopen and Judith A. Swan* wrote a text called "The science of scientific writing". Well actually it is rather text about writing in general than about scientific writing. To illustarte my point about structure I take one example from this text:
Let's imgaine a scientist tracks the temprature of a liquid over some period of time. He could present the gathered data like this:
t(time)=15', T(temperature)=32°, t=0', T=25°; t=6';, T=29°; t=3', T=27°; t=12', T=32°; t=9'; T=31°
That's pretty hard to interpret, you don't see the connection, between time and temperature. Maybe a table would improve the situation:
Well maybe we now know that there are two kind of datasets that maybe related, but the relationship is still hard to grasp. Why is this the case? Well I exchanged context and the new information the content. We expect that the context appears first and then the content. At first we have to know where we can put the new information. So we have to know were we start and then we can go on expedition.Code:temperature(°C) time(min) 25 0 27 3 29 6 31 9 32 12 32 15
So where do we exspect the stuff that comes first? We exspect it on the left, since we read from left to right. So here is a better way to sort this list:
This way the context is given where readers expect it. And the new important information is also there the reader expect it.Code:time (min) temperature(°C) 0 25 3 27 6 29 9 31 12 32 15 32
Such principles we can apply on tables can also be applied on sentences, or even on the whole text. And readers have pretty fixed expectations where to find the context and the exciting new stuff. Violating those exspectations leads to misinterpretation or noninterpretation of your text.
Of course we can also apply those principles to a home page and of course to the whole site itsself.
So in this respect how does those principles apply to Apolyton's home page. So where is the context? To answer this question we ask first: What is the context?
Well you already said that Apolyton is about civilization games in general, so it is about Civilization IV, Galactic Civs. II, Civilization III,
Rise of Nations, etc..
Now we can look for this stuff and we find it at the left. At least this is at the right place, in some sort of side menu. But this site menu has its problems. And again it is about reader's expectations.
One minor problem is that no reader expects an right alined text, all those links in the side menu are right alligned. Normally I as reder expect that all the rows start in the same column.
Another problem is that the different categories in the side menu are seperated. The side menu is splitted. But actually all the stuff is context, and should belong together. Of course you can use seperators in the side menu, but after that the side menu should still be perceived as one entity.
The final problem with the side menu is that a normal side menu works like a table with just one column. Per row you just have one piece of information. That's again about reader's expectations. Looking at the others sections catergory, we see that we have two or three pieces of information per row. And also the font size isn't the same, actually I as reader expect that different font sizes are used to denote the difference between main and subcategories. Applying this Miscellaneous has some subcategories like News, Forums and Directory. Well I think we all know better, but the structure is misleading here.
So that was a lot of talk about the context, but what is the new exciting information the content. Well we find the context - well with some shortcomings - on the left, so as average reader we expect the content on the right. Of course this should be some exciting new content. So what do we find there:
A nice welcome message, the plea for registration and a lot of links, but no new exciting information, just a promise if we click on this or that link so that we may find the desired stuff.
But that is not the only shortcoming of the content part, since the content part is devided into three columns, a second column for advertizement is ok. And there we have something that looks like advertizement for the ApolytonCon 06, so that is ok. But then there is an additional column, which maybe again some sort of main content, but that is beyond the advertizement. As reader of a internet page I don't expect there importatnt information. So the final column gets ignored.
I think it is now clear that the structure has to fullfill the reader's exspectation and that the structure has to be filled by the content. So we just have to figure out what is the exciting new information the exciting content. We already figured out that a registration form isn't very exciting. And also links are boring. The only thing that I know and we can offer that is new and exciting is news. And that is the stuff that belongs into the center of our homepage - news.Originally posted by DanQ
- Apolyton covers more than the 'direct' Civilization series. As such, the content and structure of our homepage needs to take this into account whereas a 'direct' Civ series only fansite does not.
And so far we haven't talked about the content - about the content of the news. Since Apolyton covers a little of civilization related games, it should be news of all those games. All the news we have in the news drop down menu on the top of the page. Or the stuff we get if we click on the News link on the homepage.
Yes, I do, since it is outside the structure a reader expects. Whether a piece of information reaches the receiver is all a matter about the expectations of the receiver and whether you fullfill them.Originally posted by DanQ
You are forgetting the news headlines that make-up the right-hand column here.
-MartinCiv2 military advisor: "No complaints, Sir!"Comment
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