Holiday Avatar Thread

[Straybow]

Isn't this Judah Macabbee?

[Lorizael]

Originally posted by snoopy369

I actually think that, contrary to popular belief, popular belief is not that Hannukah is the principle jewish holiday. Most who actually form an opinion are aware of Passover, at least in the christian world, due to Jesus' celebration of Passover being relived once a year in Catholic and like churches.

I wish that were true, but people's ignorance is stunning. I grew up in a place where people would look at me and ask, "So you're a jew, right?" and "Hannukah is the Jew Christmas, right?"

I live in a suburb of DC. An incredibly diverse and cosmopolitan area. With seveal distinct Jewish communities. And that's what I got.

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Adagio
I don't have it, but have you tried doing a GIS on 'Santa hat' ?

Thanks for the suggestion.

[DinoDoc]

Can anyone help me with this avatar?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by snoopy369
Judah Maccabbee was one of my favorite characters from the old testament.

I was about to make a comment about him not actually being in the "old" testament, but then I forgot some churches accept the apocraphyl books as canonical.

This is relevant as we tend to think of Hannukah as post-biblical (the bible ending with 2nd Chronicles, and the reference to the observance of the holiday first appearing in the Talmud)

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Straybow
Isn't this Judah Macabbee?

Very good, the hammer, that right.

[vovan]

Originally posted by Straybow
Isn't this Judah Macabbee?

(Not sure why I bother, since smileys quite rarely actually get updated, though... )

[snoopy369]

Hannukah _is_ the Jewish Christmas, though.

* "Holiday" trumped up in meaning to adopt to the times
* Occurs roughly during pagan winter celebration
* Involves some sort of gift exchange
* Involves celebration of 'light' (star of bethlehem, candles of menorah)
* 'Holiday' with no real meaning outside of commercialized/areligious meanings

It could be argued that Christmas has more basis (although it's certainly at minimum occuring at the wrong time of year), though I'd argue that in some ways Hannukah shares a lot with Passover (similarly a celebration of the victory of Judaism over former conquerors, despite odds) ... I realize that's an oversimplification, but nonetheless.

Easter is the primary religious celebration in Christianity, far and away; Christmas has masses and whatnot, but Easter is our Passover, absolutely.

[Kuciwalker]

Anyone care to make these christmas waffles?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by snoopy369
Hannukah _is_ the Jewish Christmas, though.

* "Holiday" trumped up in meaning to adopt to the times
* Occurs roughly during pagan winter celebration
* Involves some sort of gift exchange
* Involves celebration of 'light' (star of bethlehem, candles of menorah)
* 'Holiday' with no real meaning outside of commercialized/areligious meanings

It could be argued that Christmas has more basis (although it's certainly at minimum occuring at the wrong time of year), though I'd argue that in some ways Hannukah shares a lot with Passover (similarly a celebration of the victory of Judaism over former conquerors, despite odds) ... I realize that's an oversimplification, but nonetheless.

Easter is the primary religious celebration in Christianity, far and away; Christmas has masses and whatnot, but Easter is our Passover, absolutely.

yeah, BUT

1. Hannukah traditionally did NOT have a gift exchange. Money or candy was given to children, and that was IT. Current gift exchanges are borrowings from Christmas. Jews, traditionally did not give presents on holidays - weddings, bar mitzvahs, and births were the traditional times for gift giving. Oh, and giving food on Purim (shlach manos)

Hannukah was not even the number 2 holiday. By a long shot. The two most important "Serious" days are Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. The most important joyous holidays are Passover AND Sukkot AND Shavout - the three pilgrimage festivals. On which it is forbidden to work, and to it is mandated to have joy. Sukkos, indeed even has decorations - its traditional to decorate the sukkah, and many orthodox families today even string electric lights on them! All of the above are mandated in the Torah. Purim is next - its not required to not work, but there are important religious obligations - to hear the book of esther read. And its at least mentioned in the bible. The only halachik obligation for Hannukah is the lighting, and its not mentioned as a holiday till the Talmud.

I mean Ive got nothing against Hanukkah, I love it. ANd its very understandable that gentiles should think it more important than it is. But when Jews who completely neglect Sukkot, who are barely aware of Shavous, make a huge deal about Hanukkah, its time for some education. They seem to think making a huge deal about the Hanukkah will innoculate their kids against Christmas - and maybe to some degree theyre right, but I think theyd achieve far more if they explored the beautiful traditions associated with Shavous and Sukkos.

[Straybow]

It should be noted that the Greek NT word translated as "stable" in later European gospels is the same Greek word used by Greek-speaking Jews (like the authors of the NT and the Septuagint translators) for the sukkah.

In other words, Joseph and Mary arrived during the feast of Sukkot and had to stay and give birth in the sukkah outside the building. The place where God commanded the Jews to joyfully celebrate His presence among them.

[Straybow]

The shepherds were the priests' sons who were not yet annointed to take their places in the Temple services. They were keeping the sacrificial animals brought to Jerusalem by the pilgrims.

If the "star" (probably an astrological omen) appeared at that time it would have taken the Zoroastrian priests 2-3 months to travel from Mesopotamia to Judea. Thus, Christmas would be an appropriate time for gentile believers in the Christ to celebrate the visit of the gentile Magi.

That's what I tell the Xmas-is-pagan crowd.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Straybow
It should be noted that the Greek NT word translated as "stable" in later European gospels is the same Greek word used by Greek-speaking Jews (like the authors of the NT and the Septuagint translators) for the sukkah.

In other words, Joseph and Mary arrived during the feast of Sukkot and had to stay and give birth in the sukkah outside the building. The place where God commanded the Jews to joyfully celebrate His presence among them.

Sukkah in Hebrew refers to a booth or temporay dwelling. In order to save time during harvests, farmers slept in such booths in their fields. Sukkos comes at the very end of the harvest season (and is associated with prayers for rain during the rainy season that comes after the harvest)

If they arrived during sukkos, they would have had to share the sukkah with others, assuming they came to the house of an observant Jew, since such Jews are commanded to "dwell" in their sukkahs - today this means taking meals in the sukkah, but many observant jews sleep one or more nights in the sukkah, if weather allows. The Sukkah being a temporary dwelling MUST be taken down when the holiday ends - at least the walls must be, though supporting beams can be left up. If the Sukkah was still standing two months after Sukkos, the owner was not observing halacha as it was later determined, and indeed the building was therefore no longer a kosher sukkah.

[lord of the mark]

"The place where God commanded the Jews to joyfully celebrate His presence among them."



Deut 16:13

When you bring in the products of your threshing floor and wine vat, you shall celebrate the festival of Sukkoth for seven days.
Chag haSukot ta'aseh lecha shiv'at yamim be'ospecha migornecha umiyikvecha.

Deut 16:14 You shall rejoice on your festival along with your son and daughter, your male and female slave, and the Levite, proselyte, orphan and widow from your settlements.
Vesamachta bechagecha atah uvincha uvitecha ve'avdecha va'amatecha vehaLevi vehager vehayatom veha'almanah asher bish'areycha.


Deut 16:15
Celebrate to God your Lord for seven days in the place that God will choose, since God will then bless you in all your agricultural and other endeavors, so that you will be only happy.
Shiv'at yamim tachog l'Adonay Eloheycha bamakom asher-yivchar Adonay ki yevarechecha Adonay
Eloheycha bechol tevu'atcha uvechol ma'aseh yadeycha vehayita ach same'ach.

Plenty about happiness and joyousness. NOTHING about the presence of God, any more than on any other holiday.

I dont mean to be argumentative, but if youre going to appropriate another religions traditions as the basis for your own, youre going to have deal with the reality of the other religion. Christmas may not be a pagan holiday, but Sukkos it isnt.

[Straybow]

"I dont mean to be argumentative..." is what they all say when they're being argumentative.

I wasn't comparing Christmas to Sukkot, I was comparing Christ's birth to Sukkot and Christmas to the coming of the Magi.

They weren't in the sukkah when the Magi came, they were in a house. (I'll leave it to the reader to access the texts, gotta run.)