NFL 2013 Season Thread

[snoopy369]

I asked an impartial coworker (who is old enough to have watched Butkus) who said that Butkus probably would be the better player in the modern day game, even taking coverage into account. He did point out that there were some good tight ends back then beyond Ditka, such as John Mackey (BAL/SD), who followed Ditka into the hall of fame. Despite his size, Butkus was pretty good in coverage in his early years, until his knee injuries limited him in later years.

Whether his playing style would have had to be modified to avoid the personal fouls of course is a question, but James Harrison seems to manage well enough.

[-Jrabbit]

Absolutely not. Not in any era.

Most of what Butkus did would not be allowed today. Watch highlights. Just about every tackle he makes would be a 15 yard penalty. Urlacher dominated in every aspect... coverage, run plays, pass rushing (though not used much in this role). Butkus could hit people. Big deal. He never even saw a playoff game.

Big deal. Who gives a **** what a bunch of old white sportswriters think? Pro-football reference has him listed as #136... which is about where he should be. In his era, yeah, I would say top 10ish. But that's because the whole league was a bunch of slow fat white guys who couldn't run... and a TD:INT rating below 1:1 was enough to get a QB into the hall of fame.

So **** Butkus. The highlights are fun. But he is vastly overrated by old white guys.

I don't even think he would say he was better than Urlacher. That's the stupidest ****ing thing I've ever heard.

And what RB's did Butkus play against? Here are some of the one's Urlacher faced... Adrian Petersen, Marshall Faulk, Jerome Bettis... among others
and QB's Urlacher faced... Manning, Brady, Favre, Brees, Mike Vick, Donovan McNabb (before he was slow and bad)...

So you're going to penalize Butkus because of the era he played in? And for playing according to the rules and style of that era?

Oh, OK then. Fair.

[Sava]

Penalize? What does that even mean?

Urlacher is just better... by every objective metric. I don't have some sort of arbitrary scoring system where I am "penalizing" Butkus for these things. It's just the reality. We can't do a "what if" and put a cloned Butkus out on the field to see how he'd fair in today's game.

It's certainly your (or anyone else's) right to be willfully ignorant about the facts and hold an opinion that is wrong.

The fact that today's players are far superior to players 50 years ago isn't some sort of controversial idea. It's fact. They are strong and faster. The game is more complex. While I'm sure a lot of older players are smart guys, they just didn't play in an era of highly professionalized football.

If you need to say Butkus is the best just because it feels good, that's fine. Do that. Go play Madden on PS3 or Xbox with him as your starting MLB and destroy the opposition.

But if we're going to engage in a discussion of player rankings using objective metrics, be prepared for reality to crush your opinions into dust.

And don't blame me for this either. I'm just the messenger. I take great joy in being a dick about it.

[Donegeal]

By your logic, Sava, every player in 20 years will be better than Urlacher. Over time, these guys ARE getting bigger, stronger, quicker and faster; but that does not diminish what they accomplished in their careers.

Urlacher is good. HOF good; but I don't recall teams having to offensively gameplan against him specifically. They had to gameplan specifically against Butkus.

[snoopy369]

We can rebuild him... better... stronger... faster!!

[Sava]

By your logic, Sava, every player in 20 years will be better than Urlacher. Over time, these guys ARE getting bigger, stronger, quicker and faster; but that does not diminish what they accomplished in their careers.

I'm sure they will be. And yes... when comparing them, it does.

Urlacher is good. HOF good; but I don't recall teams having to offensively gameplan against him specifically. They had to gameplan specifically against Butkus.

This is what you are going to hang your hat on?

Relative greatness means didley squat to me. I can go play football against a bunch of 4 year olds right now and be the most dominant player EVER. That doesn't make me a great football player.

And offenses did gameplan for Urlacher. He's a hall of fame talent. Are you seriously under the belief that in the Super Bowl against Indy, Dungy just said, "meh, let's not worry about this Urlacher guy"

Dear Lord, that's so stupid. I'd post a facepalm meme if it weren't played out.

[snoopy369]

You haven't played around four year olds recently, have you. You wouldn't be the fastest one on the field by a long shot.

Dungy probably didn't worry a lick about Urlacher, because all he was worried about was making sure to keep the game close so it wouldn't be boring. He probably already had cashed his superbowl winner's bonus check before the game.

[-Jrabbit]

Sava fails to parse the distinction between "better athlete" and "better football player."

The fact is, one does need to account for the relativistic effects of playing in different eras. If all you're going to do is look at measurables of today's athletes vs. those of a half-century and more ago, well... DUH! The average offensive lineman in the mid 60's didn't weigh much more than Butkus. And gee, the '85 Bears had a rookie DL who was awesome because he weighed 300 POUNDS!!! Today, it's a minimum to play the position.

Yeah, Sava, you win by definition. Be proud. Well done.

[-Jrabbit]

The irony, of course, is that I'm a huge Brian Urlacher fan. Interestingly, most of his measurables are better than Ray Lewis'. Yet I don't hear, well, anyone saying Urlacher is the better football player.

[SlowwHand]

No matter a personal ranking, I doubt that many would consider Butkus, Singletary or Urlacher as a liability.

[Sava]

Sava fails to parse the distinction between "better athlete" and "better football player."

no
urlacher is both
get yourself a new tv
i don't know what you've been watching for the past 12 years

[-Jrabbit]

Apparently you managed to avoid watching Urlacher get swallowed up by blockers, and managed to forget seeing him get faked out of his jock by the oh-so-elusive Peyton Manning in the Super Bowl. Or perhaps you could tell me how the supposedly slow-footed Butkus got the same number of career interceptions as Urlacher (22) despite playing only 8 14-game seasons.

Dude, I'm a huge fan of Brian Urlacher, as an athlete and as a football player. In his prime, he was a super-freak athlete in the perfect system for his skills. Butkus was the same, 40 years earlier, and had football instincts and a mean streak that Urlacher IMHO could never quite match. Give Butkus the same training regimen and the same medical resources as today's athletes and we likely wouldn't be having this discussion.

BTW, your "every Butkus tackle was illegal" statement was an unnecessary (and frankly unworthy) cheap shot. Both men played to the legal limits of the game as it existed in their own time. I've no doubt that either would have adjusted just fine to the rules of each others' era.

I was 12 when Butkus was drafted. I saw just about every game he played. He dominated all-pros, and did it consistently. Brian Urlacher is the closest MLB I've seen to him since then, save perhaps Ray Lewis.

So yeah, you've seen some highlight reels. You've read some analysis. And yes, today's athlete's are bigger, faster, and stronger. Well, duh, and Babe Ruth was a fat drunkard. Congrats, you're an expert.

[SlowwHand]

You are right on the money. About the only one I would put in the same class might be Ray Nitschke.

[Tuberski]

I watched the Top 10 things we miss in football on the NFL network today:

10. Stickum
9. Barefoot Kickers
8. Angry opponents
7. Real Grass
6. Player Nicknames
5. Goalposts on the Goalline
4. Real Fullbacks
3. QB's Calling Plays
2. Football in Los Angeles
1. Well Dressed Coaches.

Everything except #2 is an OK choice, but who gives a **** about the NFL in LA?

ACK!

[-Jrabbit]

Totally agree.

I've been saying it for years -- the NFL should freeze out the LA market and make it the permanent home of the Super Bowl. I know it will never happen, since they use the SB as a carrot to get cities to build new stadia.