"NFL Football is Back!" 2011 Season Thread

[Al B. Sure!]

He's never mentioned as a possible HOF candidate but Derrick Mason has had one hell of a career. Like Hines Ward, he never had any world-beating years but has been versatile and consistently, if quietly, good

[SlowwHand]

In the current style of play, any franchise QB who can keep it up for a dozen or more years will do the same.

Exactly.

[Al B. Sure!]

Of course, Eli already has a SB and a SB MVP to his credit... If he wins another, HOF will probably be a given.

[SlowwHand]

I agree, but that's where we part ways. I don't see it happening.

[-Jrabbit]

The thing about the NFL HOF is that it's not really very exclusive. But due to the sheer number of players, you need to be dominant at your position, in your era. Eli will be measured against his contemporaries -- which includes his brother -- and while he is consistent, he isn't dominant. Same can be said of Hines Ward and Derrick Mason. Super Bowls do help, however.

On that list, the only guy who dominates in his area is Hester. No one else is really comparable. But at a specialty position like his, he needs to stay healthy and put some real distance between himself and everyone else over the next 5-6 years. If he doesn't, he's just Dante Hall Plus.

[Al B. Sure!]

It seems odd for a kick returner to get in the HOF. I mean there hasn't been a punter and only one pure kicker to make it so special teams doesn't really get much love. And besides, for the most part, a return man is a return man BECAUSE he's a mediocre talent at WR/HB/DB. Hester can return a few kicks every year but he was still a ****ty DB and a bad WR.

[-Jrabbit]

"A few kicks each year" is actually a monumental accomplishment -- especially when the league changes the rules to reduce KO returns, and about half your opponents refuse to kick to you.

But yeah, I think it's odd that people are beating the drum at this point. (Of course, it's no surprise when it comes from Chicago media.)
IMHO, Hester has to be head-and-shoulders above the others to be considered. But if he stays healthy and productive, that is quite likely.

[SlowwHand]

Ray Guy should be voted into the HOF.

Ray Guy was the first and only punter ever to be selected in the first round in the NFL Draft as of 2010. Ray Guy retired in 1986. During his career, Guy:

Played in 207 consecutive games
Punted 1,049 times for 44,493 yards, averaging 42.4 yards per punt, with a 33.8 net yards average
Had 210 punts inside the 20 yard line (not counting his first 3 seasons, when the NFL did not keep track of this stat), with just 128 touchbacks
Led the NFL in punting three times
Had a streak of 619 consecutive punts before having one blocked
Has a record of 111 career punts in post season games
Had five punts of over 60 yards during the 1981 season
Never had a punt returned for a touchdown

Ray Guy was selected to seven AFC Pro Bowl teams, and in 1994, he was named the punter on the National Football League's 75th Anniversary Team.

He was also an outstanding placekicker at Southern Mississippi, once kicking a then-record 61-yard field goal in a snowstorm during a game in Utah. After his senior season at Southern Miss, Guy was named Most Valuable Player of the annual College All-Star game, in which an all-star team of college seniors played the current Super Bowl champion. And in addition to his kicking prowess, Guy was also a starting safety in college. During his senior season, he intercepted a USM record eight passes, and was named an All-American defensive back. Guy also played quarterback in his early years and was officially the Oakland Raiders' last-string emergency quarterback, ironically replacing kicker-quarterback George Blanda in this position. During the time that Blanda was still with the Raiders, early in Guy's career, Guy would occasionally do kickoffs for the Raiders because the aging Blanda no longer had great range.

Ray Guy has been inducted into both the Mississippi and Georgia Sports Halls of Fame, the National High School Sports Hall of Fame, and the College Football Hall of Fame, and many feel he is worthy of induction into the Pro Football Hall of Fame.[2] In 1994, he was the first pure punter to be nominated for enshrinement. On April 21, 2008, Guy was inducted into the Bay Area Sports Hall of Fame.[3]

Joe Horrigan, the historian of the Pro Football Hall of Fame once said: "He's the first punter you could look at and say: 'He won games.'" Guy's punts often doomed opposing offenses to poor field position.

At the 1976 Pro Bowl, Ray Guy became the first punter to hit the Louisiana Superdome video screen. Officials raised the screen from 90 feet to 200 feet.

Ray Guy was known for punts with a high hang time; he once punted the ball with so much hangtime that the opponents pulled the ball and had it tested for helium.[citation needed] The hangtime statistic was also instituted in the NFL during his time, possibly because of him.

[Al B. Sure!]

"A few kicks each year" is actually a monumental accomplishment -- especially when the league changes the rules to reduce KO returns, and about half your opponents refuse to kick to you.

But yeah, I think it's odd that people are beating the drum at this point. (Of course, it's no surprise when it comes from Chicago media.)
IMHO, Hester has to be head-and-shoulders above the others to be considered. But if he stays healthy and productive, that is quite likely.

The problem I see is that, as I said, ultimately, guys are on special teams because they're just not that good. Carolina Steve Smith used to be a return man and he was pretty good at it (returning 5 scores in his first two seasons) but obviously didn't stay a return man for long. Desean Jackson has been scary as a part-time punt returner for the Eagles. Yes return men deserve credit for what they do but the fact of the matter is, they're supposed to be WR's/RB's/DB's first, and return men categorically suck at their real position.

As a thought experiment, what if some of these elite WR's and RB's spent their whole careers as return men? Even if you can't say a return man Desean Jackson or Steve Smith would be dominant, we know for a fact that Devin Hester doesn't approach their abilities as a WR.

[Demonbinder]

IMHO, a HOF should be for all positions. So someone like Ray Guy should be considered and so should Devin Hester, esp. if he continues at this pace. Yes, he doesn't excel at another position, but that shouldn't enter into the conversation. A player who makes a difference to his teams winning percentage should definitely be considered and field position plays a big part in the game. In addition, if Robbie Gould continues on his pace he should also get consideration. If he hadn't missed that one field goal Sunday afternoon, he would have been the highest percentage FG kicker of all time and he is still in top three or four.

[Al B. Sure!]

I'm not so sure the Bears would be better off with Devin Hester than a very good but not HOF-caliber WR. Has Hester increased their chances of winning more than a Santonio Holmes has for his teams, for example?

My point is good but not great WR's (like an Amani Toomer, a Derrick Mason, a Muhsin Muhammad, a Santana Moss, etc.) have probably helped their teams win more than a return man ever could. As important as field position and the occasional return score are, offensive yardage, first downs, and a lot more total scores are much more important. It would be bothersome to me how a return man makes the HoF on this argument.

[Demonbinder]

So no special teamer's should ever make it? Doesn't seem right to me that those positions should not get consideration.

[Al B. Sure!]

So no special teamer's should ever make it? Doesn't seem right to me that those positions should not get consideration.

But is it really even a position? I mean, yes, return men and gunners make the Pro Bowl but it seems more like a job than a position; I look at return skills as equivalent to a WR's run blocking skills. It's an aspect of the bigger job and that is, for Devin Hester, a WR.

How I see it:
1) Return men are return men because they're either rookies or they're just not that good as a starter at their real position.
2) Elite and even not-so-elite WR's are, frankly, 'too good' to be return men. You get 'promoted' up from special teams and 'demoted' down to special teams.
3) Such WR's usually had some success, albeit not to Hester's level, as return men in their first seasons when they were not yet good enough to be full-time starters.
4) How would an elite WR fare as a full-time return man? Would he be as successful as Hester?
5) How is Hester as a WR?
6) How does a 20-yard punt return help a team win compared to a 20-yard reception? Compared to a 10-yard reception? How do 3 PR's for 45 yards, and 2 KR's for 50 yards compare to 5 catches for 75? How does a 95 yard KR for a TD compare to a 75 yard TD reception?
7) Has Hester done more for his team to win games than a non-HoF WR like a Santana Moss or an Amani Toomer?

And that's ultimately what it comes down to for me. A good non-HoF #1 WR is always more valuable than a return man.

[Al B. Sure!]

And what about Brian Mitchell and Eric Metcalf? Those guys were very productive return men (okay, Hester has already returned more TD's than they did, in much less time) but were probably better RB's/WR's than Hester.

[-Jrabbit]

You assumptions and your logic are flawed, Alby. The simple fact is that Hester has shown an ability that is rarely seen in the NFL. Hester is literally a game changer. Teams kick out of bounds, giving up significant field position, rather than risk a Hester return. Fun fact: the Lions fired their punter this week.

The bottom line is this: NFL HOF selection is not necessarily about finding the best players, nor is it limited to traditional offensive and defensive positions. The mission of the HOF is: "To honor individuals who have made outstanding contributions to professional football." I would argue that Hester is on the path to doing just that.

I don't expect to convince you, Alby, and I'm not going to take the Kenobi role of endlessly arguing over hypotheticals. But let me leave you with this one thought: The mark of a great player is that teams have to alter their game plans to stop him. Devin Hester is such a player.

As for the HOF, that will have play out over the coming years. It should be fun to watch.