Rugby - The Game They Play In Heaven II

[Havak]

Welcome back. Oh I'm no writer and have much to learn from Finbar I'll admit.

But we both have to fit our stereotypes I guess - my teasing you (and it is normally teasing rather than baiting) and you being tiresomely dismissive of all things English. I only wish I could realitically see us troubling New Zealand (sorry I mean the All Blacks tm, copyright et al)

The bait about our fitenss is getting a bit old and stinky though - our lads routinely play more games a year than your primas and they are not easy games that fatties could coast through - and I assume you are being obtuse about Tom C deliberately. Nothing special about a flanker who commands the line out and can out sprint many wingers? Yeah right...and Finbars emergent concerns about his bread and butter duties are not shared by the Welford road faithful I can assure you.

Don't normally hold much time for what the taffy hack writes. Don't normally hold much time for the haka either - and sadly Jones is correct that it is these days blatantly a tool for disrupting the oppositions mental preparation pre kick off and "tradition" is used as a smokescreen, as is "challenge". My observation would be something is not a challenge if the opposition are not allowed to respond to it.

And the version with the throat slit gesture - well that simply has no place on a rugby field does it? It's a gentlemans game not a psychotics game. I thought they had canned that version though - which one have they been "performing" this year?

I applaud Jones use of the word toadying though - that simply doesn't get used enough and it does seem to encapsulate the relationship betwixt NZ and the IRB very nicely. You know the way the tail (one of the least populace rugby playing countries in the world) wags the dog (everyone else who plays the game).

He was a bit off saying that the double spear tackle that injured BOD so badly was a direct response to his throwing grass though. It was surely just careless stupidity from two players who should have looked after a fellow Professional better?

Oh god I'm partly agreeing with Jones - that is all Andydogs fault for linking it. I'm off to wash my mouth out with soap....

[finbar]

The bait about our fitenss is getting a bit old and stinky though -

The incumbent hooker?

... and Finbars emergent concerns about his bread and butter duties are not shared by the Welford road faithful I can assure you.

Of course they're not. But, at Test level, for all his skills, and I've been a big fan since the early days, I think he's in danger of falling between a couple of stools. Shame he didn't have another stone or so on him. Wouldn't significantly harm his mobility and he could play lock.

He was a bit off saying that the double spear tackle that injured BOD so badly was a direct response to his throwing grass though.

That's an example of what makes him unreadable. He rarely genuinely means those sorts of things. He's a supreme wind-up merchant. Unrelentingly so.

[Andydog]

I assume you are being obtuse about Tom C deliberately. Nothing special about a flanker who commands the line out and can out sprint many wingers? Yeah right...and Finbars emergent concerns about his bread and butter duties are not shared by the Welford road faithful I can assure you.

I didn't say he wasn't good. It comes down to what you define as being 'special'. To me, it refers to players like McCaw, Carter, BoD, Keith Wood - players who stand out, consistently perform, and whose presence strengthens the team significantly. Tom C is good, world class even, But special? Not yet. He was nominated for IRB Player of the year last year wasn't he? Remind me again who ended up winning that?

Don't normally hold much time for what the taffy hack writes. Don't normally hold much time for the haka either - and sadly Jones is correct that it is these days blatantly a tool for disrupting the oppositions mental preparation pre kick off and "tradition" is used as a smokescreen, as is "challenge". My observation would be something is not a challenge if the opposition are not allowed to respond to it.

Classic Havak cynicism. Traditional and laying down the challenge is exactly what the haka is. I do agree that those facing it should have a chance to respond though. I love it when the opposition advances on it.

I applaud Jones use of the word toadying though - that simply doesn't get used enough and it does seem to encapsulate the relationship betwixt NZ and the IRB very nicely. You know the way the tail (one of the least populace rugby playing countries in the world) wags the dog (everyone else who plays the game).

The thing that made me smile about Stephen Jones' article is the fact that we've just had an incredible Bledisloe, a fantastically high paced Tri-Nations, the premiership in the UK is underway, the England team have some exciting new prospects, they recently beat Australia currently ranked two in the world at home, but no.. Stephen Jones decides to cut and paste a stinky piece of bait that he wrote years ago. Lazy! No wonder nobody wants to publish is crap anymore.

And the man-mountain super recruit S. B. Williams will debut against England. First time I'll have seen him playing real rugby. I gather he's menacing in attack, still dodgy in defence in terms of real rugby's different requirements. I'm looking forward to it. Jimmy Cowan is stiff. I assume they're rotating.

Yes congrats to SBW. I'm a bit nervous about putting him next to Nonu though. I'd have him playing 12 next to Conrad. Keep an eye on Mathewson - this chap is looking very promising.

[finbar]

Yes, Nonu didn't have his finest defensive game last week. I'd have SBW inside Conrad too. Whether England has the midfield to exploit any weaknesses is another matter. Mathewson is promising. Youngs is the goods, though. It's mildly disturbing that one of the England coaches thinks the ABs haven't been playing real rugby and England will just shut them down playing what he thinks is real rugby. Disturbing, but not unsurprising.

[Havak]

Ah yes the defensive coach I believe, Mike Ford? I am sure NZ will make him eat those words. He does come out with some right c*** (please excuse my common language but the expression is apt). Perhaps he thinks it is motivational to talk down the Kiwis? I don't think it is an exceptional Kiwi side - Carter and McCaw aside I would class them as simply a good side - but I wouldn't accuse them of not having played real rugby. And they have the advantage I believe that the test will be played under the IRB directives used in the tri series which the UK sides have not been playing to yet! A Conspiracy matching Mr Jones suspicions or just the normal IRB incompetence I wonder?

Didn't they give player of the year to Richie? I am sure I have/will read Mr Jones citing that as further 'evidence' that the IRB is in the NZ Unions pocket?

What I would point out about Mr Jones in response to your point is that whilst he certainly hates the NZ Union he has no great love for England either. Being Welsh - and with their summer lacking the (solitary) success that England achieved - he was never going to focus on any potential positives for England.

I'll just have to hope Crofty stakes a claim to 'special' in this series then - to join the likes of Wilkinson, Richards, Back, Jonno, Giteau, Lynagh, Stransky and Eales. (Had to name something other than kiwi's and paddies to get a bit of balance here - sue me if they all come from my favourite nascent era of Professionalism).

I have to say I have seen 'special' players who haven't done it at international level and also ones that cannot bring it down to club level - sometimes it is because the team game plans do not suit them and sometimes it is because they came unprepared to compete for a place (no names no pack drill). There has been some of that with Tom - the tedious static kicking games so beloved of Borthwick's side simply didn't bring his dynamic qualites into the game (and how could they?). Still I enjoy watching the lad in his pomp and that is what matters I guess.

Ben Youngs - if he stays fit - is well on course to be 'special'. I do hope we see him in form this series - I think even antipodean fans will enjoy his skill set.

My main concern with our centres Finbar is that just like with Farrell they are forcing a player in because he cost money - regardless of whether he is up to a international 12 shirt yet. And as for the direct runner outside him well he won't give the Kiwis many surpises (if he gets the ball) - bosh bosh bosh all day long.

*edit* I had no idea Ben was rooming with Crofty. Speaks well doesn't he? Good old fashioned respect for the opposition.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/tomfordyc...go_for_it.html

[kittenOFchaos]

I don't know why I am so excited about England Vs NZ tomorrow as it is more than likely going to be a hammering. The Tri-Nations, by having so many games, means the NZ team have been playing together for months and defeated the best two teams several times home and away. England get two-weeks and their last game was a long time ago, England are going to take a while to get going and by that stage it is probably too late and add to that we've a terrible recording scoring tries, particularly against NZ. Putting your life savings on a bet that NZ will win wouldn't probably not cause you a sleepless night.

I'm very interested to see what SBW will be like.

In terms of my bets...I haven't decided yet. NZ by 16-20 seems appealing at 6-1...oh dear.

[kittenOFchaos]

Well, I couldn't resist gambling.

I've spread £15 over a range of things...not all of them can come true.

£2 J O'Connor to be the last tryscorer for Australia at 9/1

£1 Australia win between 26-30 at 10/1

£1 M Steyn - Try/Penalty & Drop Goal at 25/1

£2 NZ Win 16-20 6/1

£1 NZ exact win by 18 points at 35/1

£2 England win by 6-19 at 14/1

B.Youngs to score in 80 minutes £5 at 10/1


It'll be interesting to see how much of that £15 comes back to me.

[kittenOFchaos]

A really good first 15 minutes with both teams being enterprising, but now NZ are getting the ball and Hosea Gear...England don't really have an answer to him and Carter.

22 minutes in, England 0 - NZ 14

[Havak]

Yes but one has to take the positives.

At half time we are lucky the gap is only fourteen points - and what a shame that held up decision was (french refs - I used to like them!). And yes Mike Tindall has lost even his basic ball handling skills. And yes our execution is awful and decision making even worse.

But we are trying to play rugby with ball in hand - and given where we were a year ago I'll take that as it is a huge improvement.

Give a side as good as this NZ one 70% of the pill and they will bury you - which is what I expect in the second half.

And thumbs up to the crowd at HQ - there is nothing the IRB can do if 82,000 decide to sing away through the little dance is there?

[kittenOFchaos]

A very strange game, it'd just have required England to have not cocked up a few opportunities at the end of the 1st Half to be winning at this stage.

12 minutes to go, England 16 NZ 23

[kittenOFchaos]

Well, there is the whistle.

England 16 - NZ 26

Thought NZ would win me my bet when their scrum-half was running free near the end...oh well.

England didn't win, but could have, it was there for them. Had Toby Flood been able to kick the points abit better, it'd have been closer and had Sheridan not totally wasted an overlap and again at the death in that half, had it been recycled instead of being held up, had Hape nailed that try...who knows.

The positives is that it is clear we have a few World Class players. Ben Foden, Ashton, Youngs and Cole can be considered that. Flood would be once he gets his kicking up to standard, at the moment it is a weakness.

Perhaps England can take some SH scalps in the upcoming games...NZ were made to look very beatable for much of that.

[kittenOFchaos]

It looks like I need M Steyn to do some damage tonight to get my £15 back, damned Aussies couldn't thrash Wales...pfft!

At least Sale managed to win a game! Woohoo.

[Havak]

Whilst Tigers lost at home to Quins in the cup.

I'm not quite as convinced it was ever there for England per se - NZ had a very high error rate and blew chances of their own. They were not at their best today certainly. Such is the life of a English fan though that I do find myself strangely quite happy. I like the way England are playing at the moment and I cannot fault the commitment. I feared a far bigger beating at half time.

Forgive me a front row centric aside but I'd love to have a chat with Woodcock - highly rated in NZ I believe but he got a very hard time indeed from young Dan Cole today.

Hartley's red mist still concerns me - but his indiscipline was matched by Kaino.

And what a shock - Carter is not perfect. He tackled a man without the ball. Only 99% perfect then?

[kittenOFchaos]

NZ have to be worried where Carter is concerned. If he is injured over the next year, or even for a spell during the World Cup against quality opposition, NZ are probably screwed.

Henry really should have looked to this tour to give more time to alternatives to Carter as my impression is he is all too important to their success.

[finbar]

You're quite right, KoC. This tour is a waste of time in terms of turning up an alternative to Carter. Andydog and I both think Colin Slade should have toured. He's a talented young bloke who can play both 9 and 10 but prefers 10. He has a future, Steven Donald - the touring back-up 10 - doesn't.

I don't think it was ever really there for England either. The ABs were a mixture in the first half, ruthless and careless, but they lost the plot after half time, literally from the kick off. Too many errors and silly options, little of the ruthlessness that was evident earlier on. Which shouldn't take away from the fact that England - courtesy of the very obvious few, the younger brigade - produced some patches of very threatening rugby. Tindall is a dinosaur, completely at odds with the youthful skills around him, and Harpe's only real skill is to take the ball into contact. Toby Flood still doesn't show any great tactical nouse. He's involved, without ever giving me the impression that he has plans in mind. Carter is always thinking, sorting out options. But then he's a rare individual. England are gradually, inevitably, moving in the right direction. A lot of their threat yesterday came from broken play. What they have to do is generate the threat, and the midfield in situ works against that. It wouldn't hurt, either, to retire the defence coach to whom it hadn't occurred that the ABs might take an outside option. An option that happens to be one of their favourites. The narrow England defence was a disaster waiting to happen. It did cost them, and only Joe R's small nightmare of a match saved England's bacon on other occasions.

Dan Cole scrummaged strongly, as he should with one hand on the ground a lot of the time to keep his balance. Several of the penalties against Woodcock were actually Cole slipping his bind. An old Dan problem.

The Boks almost paid the price for not capitalising on their opportunities. Ireland were rubbish for a long time, panicking their heads off, but they eventually settled down. Sexton still looks strangely out of his depth at this level and O'Gara's appearance introduced some system.

The Wallabies were about 65% of what they were against the ABs last week. Too many errors, too many turnovers. The freakish talent in the backs won the game fairly comfortably. The scrum was a shambles and a mystery to me. The Welsh front row isn't half bad, but Robinson, in particular, and Alexander are much better than that. They both missed most of the year through injury, maybe they're struggling with that. It didn't help losing a very good hooker, S. Moore, prior to the match, replaced by a third-choice, with fourth-choice on the bench. The first choice is back in Australia, injured. The third- and fourth-choices are neither big nor strong enough nor good enough scrummagers at Test level. It didn't help either, as the commentators pointed out, that the back row contributed nothing to the scrums, minimally bound, heads in the air watching the oppo. Nil support strength. Hopefully a lesson learned. Or else.

The Taffys were missing the Halfpennys, Roberts, et al, but they wouldn't have made a difference. What the Wallabies have in spades - invention and strike power - the Taffys lack, even with a full complement. At least they have a scrum.