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MLB 2011!!

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  • There was most definitely a "Should" component to Ming's argument. Regardless, he will get in.
    I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.
    - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

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    • Nolan Ryan's group gets control of the Rangers.
      Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
      "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
      He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

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      • Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui View Post
        There was most definitely a "Should" component to Ming's argument. Regardless, he will get in.
        Have you even looked at the HOF track record on voting for those that have been proven to have taken steroids? Unless the trends change, there is no way a proven steroid user is going to get enough votes to be admitted. The current crop of voters will all have to die and be replaced. Maybe the next generation of voters might allow it, but not this bunch.

        Personally, as I have stated before, Baseballs lame ass attitude on enforcing against steroid use in the past makes the whole steroid discussion a joke. Baseball didn't really care when they KNEW that players were using them, so why should we.

        Who really knows for sure which players were and were not on steroids. Who really knows which records were broken by steroid users, and which records are so called "clean". However, those that were caught are indeed in the spotlight.

        And that's the problem I have with this whole 600 HR thing. A Rod IS a KNOWN user. It's kind of silly to be promoting how he is the youngest player to do so... Well DUH, he used steroids to HELP HIM DO IT! Maybe if others had used steroids, they might have done it this quick as well. Instead, there is all this hype for a KNOWN user...

        Sure, the stats will count, there will be no special little notations, but people will always know that he was a steroid user. And as it stands now, known users are NOT going to get into the HOF.
        "If black people robbed you, I'd not consider it prejudice for you to be angry at black people in general" - Ben Kenobi
        Lessons in Christianity.

        Keep on Civin'
        RIP Tony Bogey & Baron O

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        • And as it stands now, known users are NOT going to get into the HOF.
          I think it's pretty clear that's going to change over time.
          Apolyton's Grim Reaper 2008, 2010 & 2011
          RIP lest we forget... SG (2) and LaFayette -- Civ2 Succession Games Brothers-in-Arms

          Comment


          • But how much time... It's clear right now that the current crop of voters aren't going to let the confirmed steriod users in. By the time "the change" occurs, many of the current crop of stars will probably no longer be on the HOF list, and it will be up to the veterans... and they are going to take even longer to change.
            "If black people robbed you, I'd not consider it prejudice for you to be angry at black people in general" - Ben Kenobi
            Lessons in Christianity.

            Keep on Civin'
            RIP Tony Bogey & Baron O

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Ming View Post
              Have you even looked at the HOF track record on voting for those that have been proven to have taken steroids? Unless the trends change, there is no way a proven steroid user is going to get enough votes to be admitted. The current crop of voters will all have to die and be replaced. Maybe the next generation of voters might allow it, but not this bunch.
              McGwire is really the only person whose gotten punished. Bonds will almost definitely get in. And some "anti-steroid" user voters are going to say they are holding their nose because Bonds would have been a HOFer even before he started taking (or when they assumed he started taking) and then the floodgates will open.

              And that's the problem I have with this whole 600 HR thing. A Rod IS a KNOWN user. It's kind of silly to be promoting how he is the youngest player to do so... Well DUH, he used steroids to HELP HIM DO IT! Maybe if others had used steroids, they might have done it this quick as well. Instead, there is all this hype for a KNOWN user...
              So the pitchers being on steroids doesn't count for anything? Other past HR hitters being on amphetamines doesn't count for anything (and before you say it isn't the same, I'd say you have no idea how steroids work). Other past HR hitters not having to play against all of the best players due to segregation doesn't count for anything?
              I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.
              - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui View Post
                McGwire is really the only person whose gotten punished. Bonds will almost definitely get in. And some "anti-steroid" user voters are going to say they are holding their nose because Bonds would have been a HOFer even before he started taking (or when they assumed he started taking) and then the floodgates will open.
                Maybe... Maybe not. Only time will tell. McGwire wasn't even close getting only 23.7%. To get the required percentage, MANY people are going to have to change their minds on this topic. I'm sure Bonds will do much better than McGwire (and I personally think Bonds Deserves to be in) but I don't think he will get in just listening to the voters on the subject of steroids.

                So the pitchers being on steroids doesn't count for anything? Other past HR hitters being on amphetamines doesn't count for anything (and before you say it isn't the same, I'd say you have no idea how steroids work). Other past HR hitters not having to play against all of the best players due to segregation doesn't count for anything?
                And where did I say anything about those types of things. The fact they are promoting a known cheater reach a "first record" seems like a joke to me. Granted, a personal opinion, but there is far too much hype for a known cheater. It's almost like saying... go ahead and cheat and we will still celebrate your successes as if you never cheated.

                The real issue here is how the voters feel about steroids, not other such topics. They have made it pretty clear of their attitude toward "KNOWN" steroid users. Again, it's not my personal opinion that they don't get in... but I am saying based on what we have seen so far from the HOF voters, I think it's going to be a long time before a known steriod user is going to be voted in, or selected by the veterans commitee.
                "If black people robbed you, I'd not consider it prejudice for you to be angry at black people in general" - Ben Kenobi
                Lessons in Christianity.

                Keep on Civin'
                RIP Tony Bogey & Baron O

                Comment


                • Please, the voters wanted to use McGwire as a scapegoat. When Bonds gets in (and he will), it'll all be over and the floodgates will open, especially when people say, oh everyone was doing it.
                  I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.
                  - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                  Comment


                  • Simply an opinion... only time will tell.

                    Based on the current voting record, and the comments the voters have been making, I think your opinion is wrong.
                    "If black people robbed you, I'd not consider it prejudice for you to be angry at black people in general" - Ben Kenobi
                    Lessons in Christianity.

                    Keep on Civin'
                    RIP Tony Bogey & Baron O

                    Comment


                    • especially when people say, oh everyone was doing it.
                      The problem is, nobody knows for sure about most players... Anybody can have an opinion on what percentage of players used steroids, but it will only be an opinion. The "known cheaters" will still be in the spot light, because nobody can deny they used.

                      A lot of honest players will be VERY OUTSPOKEN on the topic when people start saying that "everybody" was doing it.
                      "If black people robbed you, I'd not consider it prejudice for you to be angry at black people in general" - Ben Kenobi
                      Lessons in Christianity.

                      Keep on Civin'
                      RIP Tony Bogey & Baron O

                      Comment


                      • I agree that McGwire may never get in. Bonds, Clemens and A-Rod all have strong cases that they would be HOF without drugs. They will likely be the first *known* juicers to get in.

                        Imran, comparing steroid use to taking greenies in the 60s is not equivalent. Have you ever taken speed? I can't imagine trying to hit a 90 mph slider in that condition. It actually explains a lot about how dominant pitching was in that era. Taking speed IS qualitatively different from artificially building muscle mass. Having an extra 20 pounds of muscle, thus hitting the ball further -- even 20 feet further -- means more HRs. Especially if the pitcher has an extra couple MPH on his fastball because he's juicing too.
                        Apolyton's Grim Reaper 2008, 2010 & 2011
                        RIP lest we forget... SG (2) and LaFayette -- Civ2 Succession Games Brothers-in-Arms

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by -Jrabbit View Post
                          I agree that McGwire may never get in. Bonds, Clemens and A-Rod all have strong cases that they would be HOF without drugs. They will likely be the first *known* juicers to get in.
                          I agree that those three have strong cases for the HOF even with the drugs.
                          (McGwire was a one trick pony) But will enough voters go for them. A-Rod probably has the best chance since he won't be on the ballot for a long time and time will be the big factor here. Bonds was never liked by the media. The steroid discussion provides an easy excuse for many to stiff him. 75% is tough to get.
                          "If black people robbed you, I'd not consider it prejudice for you to be angry at black people in general" - Ben Kenobi
                          Lessons in Christianity.

                          Keep on Civin'
                          RIP Tony Bogey & Baron O

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by -Jrabbit View Post
                            Imran, comparing steroid use to taking greenies in the 60s is not equivalent. Have you ever taken speed? I can't imagine trying to hit a 90 mph slider in that condition. It actually explains a lot about how dominant pitching was in that era. Taking speed IS qualitatively different from artificially building muscle mass. Having an extra 20 pounds of muscle, thus hitting the ball further -- even 20 feet further -- means more HRs. Especially if the pitcher has an extra couple MPH on his fastball because he's juicing too.
                            You do realize that steroids are used, in the vast majority of cases, to shorten recovery times in working out and NOT to build cartoonish muscles, right (especially considering that baseball is a game that requires a bit of flexibility as well)? Players in the 60s popped speed (literally) in order to keep their performance up during a long 162 game season. Also amphetamines tend to increase focus.
                            I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.
                            - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Ming View Post
                              I agree that those three have strong cases for the HOF even with the drugs.
                              (McGwire was a one trick pony) But will enough voters go for them. A-Rod probably has the best chance since he won't be on the ballot for a long time and time will be the big factor here. Bonds was never liked by the media. The steroid discussion provides an easy excuse for many to stiff him. 75% is tough to get.
                              Bonds is the only 500-500 player in history (is there even a 300-300 player?). A pre-1999 (if you want to do that) OPS+ of 163, which is tied for 11th all time with Jimmie Foxx.

                              Clemens is 10th all time in ERA+ (and not a media favorite either).

                              If either misses, the HOF will be considered an even greater joke in the future. That has to somewhat weigh on voters as well.
                              I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.
                              - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                              Comment


                              • I understand that a lot of users were not using steroids to bulk up. But Bonds, McGwire and Sosa are the poster boys, and they all turned themselves into unnatural physical freaks. That inevitably colors the discussion.
                                Apolyton's Grim Reaper 2008, 2010 & 2011
                                RIP lest we forget... SG (2) and LaFayette -- Civ2 Succession Games Brothers-in-Arms

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