Rugby World Cup 2007 - Twiddling Our Thumbs!

[LDiCesare]

Argentina (...) have lost players to NH clubs and while those individual players may benefit, the country suffers as their national team is kept second rate due to the NH clubs not releasing them for internationals.

I disagree. Argentina national team is stronger for their playing abroad iin my opinion. Some players may not have been released by their clubs, but that has nothing to do with playing abroad. Look at the farcical French team sent to NZ.
(And Argentina are SH by the way)

I think that the gap between NH and SH is becoming more and more pronounced.

I'am afraid I agree with you. The World Cup will tell, but even if some of the counterperformance can be blamed on not being fit, the results of France against NZ were too pitiful not to be worrying. Worse, France, Ireland and Argentina will be in the same pool, which means those who get out will be relatively more tired than the other teams, which basically only leaves England in NH to reach the quarter finals in good shape in the World Cup (excuse to the Welsh, Scots and Italians, but I don't think they stand any chance of reaching the semis).

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Havak
Not that I can personally remember the last time any side slammed the Tri-nations?

NZ slammed it in 1996, 1997, and 2003. The only other team to do it was SA in 1998...a dark year for NZ rugby.

[Andydog]

Originally posted by LDiCesare

I disagree. Argentina national team is stronger for their playing abroad iin my opinion. Some players may not have been released by their clubs, but that has nothing to do with playing abroad. Look at the farcical French team sent to NZ.
(And Argentina are SH by the way)

I don't quite understand your point here. A team playing internationals without their top players is less likely to win. Would Argentina have won more games in recent years with a full strength squad? Probably. Not only would they have had the extra skills, but also the benefit of those skilled players helping develop the guys playing along side them.

(And I'm well aware of Argentina's location on the globe).

[Havak]

I knew NZ had dominated the tri-nations since it's inception. Although alongside the Slams aren't they also the only side that ever got 'blanked' (won none of their games)? 1998?

So what clubs have been stopping Argentinian players accepting national call ups? French sides? the French Union is IRB affiliated so how could they do so?

Are we talking the less than savoury situation whereby clubs are saying "if you choose to play for Argentina forget your next contract here"?

I'm curious as I can't think of any examples of English clubs not releasing Argentinians. I can think of examples of them not releasing Welsh players and English players for certain fixtures but thats a whole different kettle of worms (I'm a forward - I'm allowed to mix metaphors).

I'm truly not worried about an increasing NH-SH gap at this time. We have an NZ side in an extended sublime period and an English side in an extended disasterous period. Neither are likely to remain at such extremes long term.

Apples and Oranges right now really. With France Melons as per normal - sometimes awesomely tasty but othertimes bitter and flacid.

But the sport is cyclical - and if they properly address the fundamentals of season structure and internal power struggles England can and will improve radically.

We do need to be cautious - it might be highly unlikely in all our opinions right now but it is not impossible for France or England to trip up NZ under the right circumstances (what was the phone number of that Bok chef?)

[LDiCesare]

A team playing internationals without their top players is less likely to win. Would Argentina have won more games in recent years with a full strength squad?

I don't think Argentinans lacked their offshore players for (m)any matches.

what was the phone number of that Bok chef

We can't have food poisoning in France, that would ruin our reputation for cuisine.

[Andydog]

Originally posted by Havak
So what clubs have been stopping Argentinian players accepting national call ups? French sides? the French Union is IRB affiliated so how could they do so?

I'm not sure exactly what clubs to be honest, I've just read that this occurs.

Another thing I've read is that Argentina's season has become very fragmented because most of their top players are over in Europe all the time. They don't have many international games compared to other teams. The players that are released often only have a few days to train together as a full strength squad.

I'm truly not worried about an increasing NH-SH gap at this time. We have an NZ side in an extended sublime period and an English side in an extended disasterous period. Neither are likely to remain at such extremes long term.

I don't agree. Since you lost all your top players after the MJ years, England have struggled big time. This has lasted 4 years so far, and looks to continue. I know the adverse structure and politics of English rugby have a lot to do with it, but I've noticed a consistent lack of depth and skill in the English squad, and that can't improve with all the imports preventing development of young English players.

NZ by contrast has an excellent development process of young kiwis that gives us large numbers of highly skilled players to draw from, and the result is that we have been consistently at the top or pretty dam near for as long as I can remember anyway. Yes sport is cyclical, but the frequency and amplitude of those cycles vary largely on the quality of the development process of young players.

[finbar]

I think I read that the Argies were senza their best players in the recent series. I don't know whether it was for purposes of rest or club demands.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Havak
I knew NZ had dominated the tri-nations since it's inception. Although alongside the Slams aren't they also the only side that ever got 'blanked' (won none of their games)? 1998?

No, Australia were "blanked" in 2005.

[finbar]

ABs too good when it counted, particularly after they sorted out their lineout and properly exposed the Wallaby front row as pretenders. D. Vickerman and N. Sharp are maturing into a very useful combination. D. Carter back into some sort of form, but I'm yet to be convinced McAlister and Toeave are the ideal centre combination. Pity Knuckles decided to experiment with a novice fullback.

[Caligastia]

Not a pretty game to watch, but given the weather conditions I thought errors were minimal. No doubt my fellow countrymen will go back into their "ABs will inevitably win the RWC" state of mind.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by finbar
I'm yet to be convinced McAlister and Toeave are the ideal centre combination.

Well, McAlister has just joined the exodus to England, so another combination will have to be found in the long term anyway.

[finbar]

For two years after the World Cup anyway. He's planning on returning to New Zealand post-Sale-contract. He says.

[Caligastia]

Exactly...a wise coach wouldn't bet on his return.

[Nugog]

Originally posted by Caligastia
No doubt my fellow countrymen will go back into their "ABs will inevitably win the RWC" state of mind.

Not this one....



We have a reasonable chance - but then we have had a reasonable chance before as well............

[Havak]

One of Argentinas fundamental problems is that there are no Professional clubs for them to ply their trade with at home. The players must travel abroad to make a living. Most of SANZAR is now a closed shop to them so they have to look to countries that will accept them.

There have been occasions when French clubs have rattled their sabres about releasing players – normally it is just noise and the players get released anyway.

Another problem for the Pumas is their lack of a seat at the top table – it’s well known how often they have been spurned by SANZAR about joining the tri-nations, and joining the Six nations becomes unwieldy if it becomes the Seven or even Eight Nations as has been mooted. Then again with the Boks making overtures to the Six Nations recently the Pumas could fill that gap?

but I've noticed a consistent lack of depth and skill in the English squad, and that can't improve with all the imports preventing development of young English players.

That’s a logical conclusion for someone looking from outside our club system to draw. It’s not a lack of development though – but rather it’s a case of fragmented development. Some clubs have strong Academies that are producing excellent young English player on a regular basis. But not in all positions. At the moment there are problems with props, at openside flanker and in the centres. In almost every other position there are highly talented young players. Some clubs in the top flight do not develop young English talent at all – and I’m a big believer they should be punished for it by their peers in ERP.

Then there is Englands form – on the face of it your charge is quite valid as they have lost over half their tests since the World cup final. But it’s not quite as simple as a lack of top class talent (I wish it were in a way as there is lots of young talent around the 20 mark right now which would bode well for 2011). Rugby is a team game – and those teams and coaches that fully understand this are the ones that succeed.

The ABs are not the best players in the world in [I]every single position[/I} - sorry if that offends. Some positions certainly – but not all. What they are is a frankly awesome unit holistically. No one can consistently match them right now for how they work together on the field.

In the middle of 2004 England were taken over by a man who thought “team” only meant the number of yes men he could surround himself with. Performances have improved under Ashton – even the third team being drubbed twice in South Africa showed some passion for what they were doing – but there is a long way to go.

Ashton is certainly not perfect – he has picked too many players from his alma mater at Bath and he has ignored some huge young talents (were they Kiwi the likes of Crane and Croft would already be in the squad) but he is a big step up from the turnip that preceded him and I’m prepared to give him more time.

Which takes me back to my point – England will not stay down where they are now forever. NZ is rugby mad with a considerable youth participation and that currently gives a big advantage – but it isn’t guaranteed forever and nor is staying near the top of the pile. Although of course you are just using the rankings there – we can all cite cases of seeing any team play ineptly. 1998 was my favourite year for the ABs for doing that – probably the consistently worst I’ve ever seen them myself.

Anyhoo time to move on – as always we will never quite see eye to eye on anything I suspect. Jolly good luck in the World Cup – that red hot favourites tag is a real burden at times?