Rugby World Cup 2007 - Twiddling Our Thumbs!

[finbar]

Missed the first half, but presumably it was what I saw for a lot of the second half - cracking Bok defence, the ABs delaying the inevitable with more fumbling and bumbling. The result was inevitable because, with skills to burn, it was only a matter of time before they clicked often enough to score tries.

Nice to see D. Howlett back in the fray. He's turned himself from an outright speedster into a very good, all-round player.

Presumably, they will put it all together against the Wallabies next week. If not, the Wallabies are in with a real show again, because they have the attacking guile and firepower to punish the AB fumbles and bumbles.

I have no idea why the ABs are playing the way they are. At this stage of the season, it can have nothing to do with the enforced rests a lot of the players had earlier in the season. They've now played enough rugby to be getting things right.

[Havak]

They are very fortunate that they are a good enough side to keep getting away with such error strewn performances. On 65 minutes you would never have guessed the final score correctly (well I didn't anyway - the last try ruined my prediction).

I think one of their major concerns is that Mr Carter is just not clicking at the moment. Still there is time before the RWC yet to get it right.

Should the Wallabies turn them over it does make the lead up to the RWC more tasty for non-Kiwis.

Did you feel it was a very NH perfomance from Dickinson? His whistle saw plenty of use throughout.

*edit* Six of the England squad released already. Olly Morgan, Fraser Waters, Magnus Lund, Shane Geraghty, Louis Deacon and Andy Hazell.

The only surprises there are Deacon (who was a first choice as recently as the autumn) and Lund (who along with Rees is the only specialist openside).

Reading into those cuts it does indicate strongly that Ashton has Corry ear marked for one of the lock positions meaning that the endless self promoting nose now has a much stronger chance of making the final 30.

[finbar]

That's the problem with the ABs - they only have to click for five minutes and they can ram home 15 or more points. Carter is certainly a problem, he's kicking much more than he usually does, and not that well. He's not backing himself as he does in form, and that's holding them back.

I also think the selectors' ongoing shuffling in the midfield is doing damage. No one is there together long enough to build cohesion. Which might be hampering Carter as well. For what it's worth, I'd have A. Mauger at 12 and C. Smith at 13. Mauger is, at this point, superior to L. McAlister, and Smith to the promising but erratic Toeave.

I think the ref was only guilty of paying the penalties that were there.

The cuts from the England squad all point to Nose's return. I couldn't believe they'd dropped Lund and Deacon.

[Andydog]

Originally posted by Havak
As for the ignorance bit humour aimed at a sporting body and it's team for something definitely done by them in the past should never be perceived as referencing an entire nation and it's culture. The difference between my intended message and what you received was miles apart here.

I suspect I'm wasting my breath here, but what the hell. It’s a quiet Monday anyway.

Here is a little bit of information for you to chew on. EVERY SINGLE ISLANDER All Black learned to play rugby in New Zealand. They went through the New Zealand School systems and then clubs and development squads. You can see for yourself on www.rugbymuseum.co.nz.
Henry and his mates didn't go on a nice old little holiday to Fiji and Samoa, kick it up in the sun and offer all their elite players millions of dollars to come play in New Zealand.

Most of the AB islanders came to NZ when they were 5 or so years old with their families due to economic reasons and a search of a better lifestyle like the rest of the Polynesian population in Auckland. So unless Mr. Henry had some extraordinary kind of vision 10/20 years ago that these bunch of Islanders are going to make elite rugby players one day, and that he will be coaching the All Blacks in 2007, I highly doubt he went to Fiji and Samoa to recruit 5 year old school boys.

Now for the Henry's "crying" about NH stealing SH players. It takes a lot of time and money to develop elite players such as the All Blacks, and fair enough if he has a problem with European Clubs stealing the players they all worked so hard to develop.

Something else for you to chew on. If NH clubs use that same money or even a portion of it to develop their own players maybe they will pick up their game at tad. Importing SH players only turn your own local players off the game so really you are just moving backwards.

[Havak]

Your link is broken for me.

I will research your assertions about the current NZRFU player roster when time allows (it wouldn't be fair to look back to the dual selection era).

Cheap shots at UK club rugby there - mirror images of what you accuse me of perhaps? UK clubs have a long and proud history of playing SANZAR players that dates well back into the amateur era - and most of the successful clubs still try to use these players to develop their own players. Daryl Gibson for example has been instrumental in Dan Hipkiss getting an England call up - and I am sure Tigers have high hopes Mauger will improve the three English players he will play alongside even further.

I feel the need to ask if you saw any UK club rugby last season - as you do seem confused between the performance of club sides and the rather poorer showing of the national side. It might be worth your checking how many English players started the European Cup final if you get chance.

England has talented players, with problems in some areas certainly, but the woes of the national side are not down to a simple lack of player talent. The problems are sadly far more fundamental than that with us working within a system that requires complete overhaul (but can't have it because of an endless power struggle)

Anyway I'm really not after another barny with you believe it or not.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Andydog
Now for the Henry's "crying" about NH stealing SH players. It takes a lot of time and money to develop elite players such as the All Blacks, and fair enough if he has a problem with European Clubs stealing the players they all worked so hard to develop.

"Stealing" is hardly the right word. It comes down to money. Nobody is kidnapping SH players and forcing them to play in England.

[Havak]

And that is the problem facing the NZRFU. Money talks and they cannot match the deals being offered in Europe.

Although I do have some sympathy for what Andydog says - the NZRFU does spend a lot of time and money developing talents that it then often cannot hold on to. The trend of younger players signing in the NH is a fairly new development - and of far greater significance to NZ than the old process of retirees heading for a pension.

[Andydog]

Originally posted by Havak
Cheap shots at UK club rugby there - mirror images of what you accuse me of perhaps?

Not sure where you're coming from here. Not once did i make any specific references to UK club rugby.

UK clubs have a long and proud history of playing SANZAR players that dates well back into the amateur era - and most of the successful clubs still try to use these players to develop their own players. Daryl Gibson for example has been instrumental in Dan Hipkiss getting an England call up - and I am sure Tigers have high hopes Mauger will improve the three English players he will play alongside even further.

I think there are more dominant reasons than that for UK, France, etc to recruit SANZAR players, but point taken.

I feel the need to ask if you saw any UK club rugby last season - as you do seem confused between the performance of club sides and the rather poorer showing of the national side.

I saw a bit, but why do you think I'm confused? Not once did I make any specific references to England's national team.

Anyway I'm really not after another barny with you believe it or not.

he he, me neither. I just get a little tired of our NH friends and others who clearly have never been to NZ continuously and monotonously beating the poaching drum. The facts are that Auckland has the highest population of Pacific Islanders in the world and most have lived there for the vast majority of their life. It would be very very wrong in our eyes to exclude them from selection just because they were born on a different island in the Pacific.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Andydog
he he, me neither.

Bugger.

EDIT. Meanwhile, the ABs seem to have decided McAlister and Toeave are their #1 centre pairing. I can't agree, but then I'm not a selector. The Wallabies, I think, won't mind taking them on.

[Havak]

If NH clubs use that same money or even a portion of it to develop their own players maybe they will pick up their game at tad. Importing SH players only turn your own local players off the game so really you are just moving backwards.

That isn't the most thoroughly veiled attrack on NH clubs that I have ever seen so forgive me for taking that inference (even if I did assume you used NH as a substitute for English)!

[Andydog]

Well, I don't mind talking about England as an example. Do you not find it concerning that England are importing more and more?

I agree with you that Mauger will help develop the players he plays alongside, but what about your younger centres? Importing players reduces the possibility of younger locally grown players developing and playing within that competition. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I read somewhere that there are just three English-born first choice first-fives in the Guinness Premiership. I'm not sure on the other positions, but I haven't seen many first choice English wingers either.

Its clear to me that these imports are slowly eroding your game, and if I were you I'd be hugely concerned about that.

[Havak]

We are in agreement to a certain extent!



I am hugely concerned about the number of imports. Not so much about the Aussies and Kiwis but both the Kolpak ruling and the domestic status of any EC qualifying player.

The Premiership allows one ‘foreign’ player to take the field at any one time, the European Cup allows two. That’s fine – Tigers for example can recruit two class Kiwi players without affecting the team over much and the net effect should be pretty positive.

The problem is that South Africans do not count as foreign players thanks to the Kolpak ruling. Some sides in the Premiership are therefore loaded with South Africans (Interestingly at the moment Tigers don’t have any - that I know of), London Irish being a prime example.

On top of that any EC national qualifies as a domestic player in the UK (because the EC has wide ranging restraint of trade legislation). You can therefore sign as many EC nationals as you like and play the lot. That encompasses anything from all the Celtic nations through France and Italy to Romania.

Of the front line first team props at Tigers two are Italian, one Argentinian and only one English. Our first choice hooker is English but now the backups are French and Irish (oops - and a Welshman too, sorry Mefin!). You are therefore quite right that I am concerned about the situation – in my formative years the Tigers ABC club was a production line of English front row players.

That might not sound too bad even so until you look into what qualifies players for the Kolpak and EC status. The letter of the law is obeyed but the spirit possibly pushed shall we say?

To pick on my local derby rivals Saints they regularly fielded Mark Robinson, Bruce Reihana , Carlos Spencer and Vaughan Going in Premiership games last year – all Kiwis by birth. I am certain I saw the first three play together if not all four – only possible if they have leveraged EC status (European heritage or parentage). I understand Robinson has definitely done so but at least one of the others must have also.

Of course this also explains the nonsense last year when AB Legend Andrew Mehrtens reportedly considered pursuing his Bok status (due to birthplace – I am sure you knew he was not born a Kiwi?) so he would qualify for Kolpak and not count as a ‘foreign’ player for Harlequins.

Okay that answer is getting too lengthy but to summarise yes I am concerned. High quality signings like Mauger and Jack are fine, but teams stuffed full of non English qualifying players is a real worry. Sides like Tigers, Wasps and Saints still have strong academy systems – but the graduates do need places where they can ply first team rugby and there is no doubt the imports are directly affecting that.

[LDiCesare]

I'll point out that the problem of raising young talents is not limited to foreign players.
In France, we'll be lacking props soon too if things continue the way we're going. Many props in France are Argentinian, Romanian, Italian. We're still somewhat lucky in other spots, but fly halves are often foreigners too.
But then, we have clubs who hire foreign players and raise players too. Kaiser for instance is a (former) Stade Francais hooker, who learned his trade in Paris despite the many foreign players in that team.
Last, we have clubs who have very good junior players. For instance a friend of mine played in the Racing Metro (former French champion at the time of Mesnel and Cabannes, now a proD2 team). This team hired a lot of star players this year in order to make it back into the elite. So they have a lot of good young players and they've never given them much game time, and those who stay won't be having any next year since only hired veterans will be playing.
Even without the issue of foreign players, clubs that do not want to invest in young players exist and will keep existing.
Still, we're lucky enough in France to have a lot of poor clubs. A club like Pau gave us Beauxis, and we have clubs like Dax who can hardly buy players but have to rely on local talents (actually, they hire the young of Peyrehorade and then get their players bought by Toulouse).
So does the presence of foreign players change much in our championship? I don't think it's terrible. I'm certain, however, it improves the level of teams like Argentina and Italy.

[Havak]

The irony here of course is that Benjamin Kayser, the young French hooker developed by Stade Francais (a side who are themselves notorious for chequebook recruitment), is now a Tigers player.

[finbar]

Sky Italy's World Cup memory the other night was the infamous '99 semi 'twixt France and the ABs. Fascinating to watch it again. The tide was already turning, but a lucky bounce for C. Dominici - and, admittedly, some skilled handling of the bounce - and a T. Umaga fumble were the nails in the coffin.