Rugby World Cup 2007 - Twiddling Our Thumbs!

[MOBIUS]

So who is intending to see any rugby world cup games?

I will be seeing all four at the Millennium Stadium:

Wales Vs Australia

Wales Vs Japan

A RWC Quarter Final

Also the Pool B match between Canada and Fiji

[LDiCesare]

I should definitely go by tickets. But my wife won't go with me. I think I'd watch Italy-Portugal and Ireland-Argentina. France matches are already full of course and I didn't buy tickets when I should have...

[finbar]

Strange. My wife wouldn't go with me either if I asked her. Begged her. Must be something in the chromosome.

[MOBIUS]

We could have put you up for the Wales Vs Australia game as well...

[Havak]

I think he would rather catch a competitive game instead of the Wallabies romping to an easy victory.

Robbie Russell has retired. An unremarkable player in most ways the Australian born Scot is part of Tigers folklore because whilst with Sarcens he once climbed all over Martin Johnson's back and then through the ludicrous disciplinary system managed to get Jonno banned because Martin shrugged him off in a away that sent the hapless Russell flying over the top of Martin's head.

My own view on that is if you don't want to get hurt don't go climbing all over locks.

Finbar might recall there was bad blood between Tigers and Sarcens at the time - Jonno also getting into trouble for alledgedly dropping the knee into a player named Duncan McCrae.

McCrae claimed serious rib damage that would keep him out for months but miraculously recovered after just three weeks (and played the very day after Jonno had been banned for six weeks for the incident - curious timing that).

McCrae wasn't injured at all of course - Jonno had dropped down to speak to him to politely ask him not to hold Neil Backs shirt again.

McCrae of course is also infamous for a vicious (and inadequately punished) unprovoked assault on Ronan O'Gara in 2001.

Ah those were the days - when the SH was supplying a lot of third tier nobodies to the Premiership.

[Andydog]

Originally posted by Havak
Okay that answer is getting too lengthy but to summarise yes I am concerned. High quality signings like Mauger and Jack are fine, but teams stuffed full of non English qualifying players is a real worry. Sides like Tigers, Wasps and Saints still have strong academy systems – but the graduates do need places where they can ply first team rugby and there is no doubt the imports are directly affecting that.

Which brings us back to the point that if the English clubs were to spend the money on development rather than imports, perhaps they wouldn't need so many imports. So Henry is right. Imports damage the country who is importing them, and the country that is losing them. Damage all round.

Originally posted by MOBIUS
So who is intending to see any rugby world cup games?

A bunch of us are going up to see NZ play Scotland at Murrayfield, then over to Cardiff for the QF, which will be the winners of Pool C (NZ of course!) vs the runners up of Pool D (either Ireland, Argentina, or even France perhaps), then down to Stade de France for the Semi. We didn’t manage to get tickets for the final, but have booked the train tickets, so worst case we’ll be watching it in a pub in Saint Denis somewhere.

Originally posted by finbar


Sky Italy's World Cup memory the other night was the infamous '99 semi 'twixt France and the ABs. Fascinating to watch it again. The tide was already turning, but a lucky bounce for C. Dominici - and, admittedly, some skilled handling of the bounce - and a T. Umaga fumble were the nails in the coffin.

I was at that game. All I can remember is getting hideously drunk afterwards and trying unsuccessfully to avoid the rampant gloating French supporters. Those memories still give me the shudders.

[finbar]

You've had much in common with Havak over the years in terms of drunken despair.

[Havak]

That experience broadly matches my own on far too many occassions.

Brive at Cardiff in 1997, Wasps at Twickers in 2005 AND 2007 and Australia at Sydney in 2001 are probably the stand outs.

[finbar]

That's why I put rugby first and allegiances second.

[LDiCesare]

Imports damage (...) the country that is losing them.

I disagree here. As I said, Italy and Argentina are much better off since their players play in France and England. I'll draw a parallel with soccer, shocking though it may be: National teams whose players don't play in the national championship can often be quite successful and are not uncommon.

[LDiCesare]

While I'm talking about exports, I don't think having Ibanez export himself to England harmed France in any way. He's our skipper now, and playing with the H Cup winners didn't make him lose his edge.

[finbar]

Even if it gave Havak cause to doubt Ibanez's parentage.

[Andydog]

But the discussion was focused on NH importing SH players.

In any case - individual players who play for foreign clubs in a competition within which their own country plays don't really suffer, I agree. But young local players who would have otherwise had a shot at that position do - local talent doesn't get developed and therefore the country suffers.

Lets look at your example of Argentina from their perspective. They have lost players to NH clubs and while those individual players may benefit, the country suffers as their national team is kept second rate due to the NH clubs not releasing them for internationals. Having a 2nd rate team does nothing to promote the game and generate public interest within that country.

If you want more evidence of how the imports are eroding NH rugby, just look at the piss poor standards of the last 6 Nations.

[Havak]

I actually welcome a broadening of the discussion myself.

Can we hold off a few years to see if the 6N is just going through a low trough in the cycle (similar to the tri-nations in the late 90s and early 00s)? Not that I can personally remember the last time any side slammed the Tri-nations?

Generally a weak England and a misfiring France means a poor six nations and you may well have a point if both those sides keep systematically misfiring for a few more years.

The Argentina issue surprises me - I thought they were at their highest ranking ever and enjoying their best results ever over the last 18 months or so?

Don't know about NH clubs as a whole but English clubs certainly do release them for sanctioned Internationals - actually being required to do so by the IRB. Ayerza disappears every time the Pumas play for a trivial example.

[Andydog]

Argentina played Ireland recently iirc and won one and lost one. But I'm not sure if the Argies are improving - rather the other NH teams are slipping. The Argies have always been a team of great potential, but they’ve never been allowed to progress such that they can compete on the world stage.

I think that the gap between NH and SH is becoming more and more pronounced. Look at when NZ has played NH teams recently - 4 floggings of the French (albeit 2 against a French B team), and big winning margins against England, Ireland, and Wales. And let’s not forget the shoeings of the Lions series.

Go back earlier and you'll see margins being a lot closer and even wins over NZ.