Rugby - Laissez la balle, Bleus!

[Joe Kick Ass]

Originally posted by Havak
The blind faith the complaining Welsh fans have that they would have scored from that line out is also very misplaced

Judging by your country flag and avatar (and your post, of course ), I get the impression you're doing a little digging for reasons to chastise the Welsh here...

Plenty of people are slamming White, and rightly so. It was rubbish officiating, and cost us a draw. However, following the customary match day optimism and self-deception, most are back to berating the team and coaching staff, and predicting another heavy loss.

The only real upshot of that decision, is that this week people in Wales are left asking who's the biggest tw*t...Chris White or Gyppo?

[ravagon]

Originally posted by Havak
Not that I was entirely neutral.

Nonsense. Your legendary impartiality stands the test of time.


I have to wonder though, a number of sources are blaming the Welsh team for a fair bit of on-field dithering in the time between the penalty being awarded and the kick being taken.
Just how much of the blame should the ref be copping for this?

[Havak]

My impartiality is certainly legendary – thank you for noticing.

White does deserve a lot of the flak as he wasn’t clear with the Welsh players. He was technically right but as Clayton Thomas said Chris should perhaps have felt honour bound to allow the line out after his lack of clarity led to Wales making a poor decision.

That said Wales must accept some flak too – they could have kicked to save the game and they did dither before kicking to touch. They burnt seven seconds and the line out then did not form before time expired.

Poorly handled all round but I think any fan whose country was on the receiving end has a right to feel aggrieved – most refs would have allowed the line out.

Onto other matters:

I saw that Tuquiri had bitten the golden bullet. Time to apply the work ethic now then?

I have a feeling you may see Tait take over from Tindall sooner than I expected Finbar.

Laporte is seeing that taking the players off the field for a long time doesn't make them fit or able to play correctly, as the match against the Pumas showed...

He has been working from a more consistent talent pool than Andy Robinson had available but Laporte does manage to suggest to me that he too lives in his own particular reality with some of the things he says.

But then the other day I heard Ibanez seem to suggest that the two losses to New Zealand had been a positive experience for France because they had learnt so much from them (how to lose to good sides? England can give master classes on that but I’m not sure the experience particularly helps anyone).

Plenty of people are slamming White, and rightly so. It was rubbish officiating, and cost us a draw.

Without wishing to wind you up I would suggest the decision not to kick at the posts cost you the draw. And my previous point was that it was by no means certain the catch and drive would have worked – Italy had contained it well all game after all.

As for White he handled it appallingly that is for sure – but even Clayton Thomas concedes that White was technically within the laws. One of the main reasons I enjoy little digs at Wales right now is the coach I am afraid – he lacks class and as I have said before he sprays like a tomcat blaming everyone but himself for anything that goes wrong.

I have therefore enjoyed his record as Wales coach – is it wins over the mighty Canada and Pacific Islanders and then losses to everyone else?

More seriously Wales problem is that all those players that were towering presences in 2005 are out of form. Ryan Jones is a shadow of his former self, Stephen Jones seems to be being strangled by the captains armband, all of the locks seem to have lost form together, Gethin Jenkins has never been the same since returning from injury and age seems to have caught up with Alfie. Even Peel isn’t up to his own high standards.

And then there is Henson of course. A one game wonder who largely talked himself into place as Wales indispensable wonder player. Keep your fingers crossed that the coach has the sense to keep the far superior Jones-Hook-Shanklin combination when the orange one finally gets fit again. How did Henson get all that press when Shanklin has consistently been Wales best Centre?

It isn’t all doom and gloom of course – players can recover form and even a poor Welsh side has a good chance against England in Cardiff. The SH boys will never have experienced the ‘welcome’ England get in Wales.

And there’s Hook of course – as big a breakthrough talent as any team have found this year.

All that said I would be most happy for England to win this weekend.

[Joe Kick Ass]

Originally posted by Havak
Chris should perhaps have felt honour bound to allow the line out after his lack of clarity led to Wales making a poor decision.

Lack of clarity?

Hook: "How long to go?"
White: "Ten seconds"
Hook: "Have we got enough time for the lineout?"
White: "If you do it now"

The lineout had to be called.

Originally posted by Havak
Without wishing to wind you up I would suggest the decision not to kick at the posts cost you the draw. And my previous point was that it was by no means certain the catch and drive would have worked – Italy had contained it well all game after all.

I think the point is, if we knew time was up, we might have chosen to kick for goal instead of touch.

Originally posted by Havak
One of the main reasons I enjoy little digs at Wales right now is the coach I am afraid – he lacks class and as I have said before he sprays like a tomcat blaming everyone but himself for anything that goes wrong.

Interestingly, there was a poll conducted by a Welsh media website last week, regarding the future of Jenkins - whether he should be sacked. It had four voting options, none of which amounted to a "no". Needless to tell you the result.

Originally posted by Havak
And then there is Henson of course. A one game wonder who largely talked himself into place as Wales indispensable wonder player. Keep your fingers crossed that the coach has the sense to keep the far superior Jones-Hook-Shanklin combination when the orange one finally gets fit again. How did Henson get all that press when Shanklin has consistently been Wales best Centre?

The thing is, Stephen Jones isn't much more popular than Gyppo atm. Also, following Paris, most people were ready to write Hook off as an international centre. Yeah, more a consequence of the result than an actual criticism of Hook (read: scapegoat), whose data wasn't bad at all. Still, he probably won't end up as a centre. That considered, plenty of people seem to favour a combination of Hook-Henson-Shanklin.

Of course, yourself and Gyppo seem to have some common ground re: Henson, and with Jones as captain...

Also: to get to the bottom of the Henson issue?

Originally posted by Havak
All that said I would be most happy for England to win this weekend.

If you haven't seen yet, same team btw...

[finbar]

Also: to get to the bottom of the Henson issue?

Yes, but is he the father?

So, Havak. M. Cueto to the wing and J. Robinson to full back?

[Havak]

Same team except for "Captain C***" I believe?

Yes Finbar - I'd be very surprised if they didn't play that way around despite the shirt numbers they have been given.

JKA - I've watched the clip of Chris White's shambolic handling of that penalty - your transcript is quite right and I think there is a reasonable case that he did indeed contravene law 5.7e as the welsh have been claiming. Wales have every right to be unhappy.

Mind you Alfie took it well didn't he - I thought another Toulouse indicent was coming up.

On that note I see Brennan has retired to avoid attending an IRB disciplinary hearing. Just the court case for the actual assault now then?

[MikeH]

I really liked Troncon's response.

It was along the lines of 'they had time to kick for the line-out if they hadn't spent so much time faffing around asking the referee how long was left'.

And he was right too.

[Havak]

Paraphrased indeed - but I see where you are coming from.

I'm no fan of Wales as must be very clear - but Chris White did break a longstanding convention here and I can't help but think how I would feel had England been on the receiving end. I do feel some sympathy.

In addition it has given the Welsh even more motivation for next weekend (like they needed any more).

[Joe Kick Ass]

Originally posted by Havak
Mind you Alfie took it well didn't he - I thought another Toulouse indicent was coming up.

To be fair to Alfie, when he tries to elucidate his feelings, he tends to end up looking even more an idiot than if he'd just have tw*tted the bloke...

His Ruddock outburst on TV last year was a thing of legend...

Originally posted by finbar
Yes, but is he the father?

We'll just have to wait and see which shade of orange the young one turns out in.

Originally posted by MikeH
And he was right too.

What are you talking about? Right because we took less time than White told us we had?

[MikeH]

He was right that if you'd kicked to touch straight away rather than spending 20 seconds chatting to the ref you'd have had time to take the line-out.

[MikeH]

BTW I totally agree that you should have been given the line-out, the rules say it's up to the referee when the game is over. He should have just said there was time for the line-out. Really not sure why he didn't.

Wales probably wouldn't have scored anyway.

[Joe Kick Ass]

Originally posted by MikeH
He was right that if you'd kicked to touch straight away rather than spending 20 seconds chatting to the ref you'd have had time to take the line-out.

Err, no.

Read the transcript above..."If you do it now", then an immediate kick...and a whistle.

From his original "10 second" statement, at most 6 seconds passed before the ball was deep in the stands...

Originally posted by MikeH
Wales probably wouldn't have scored anyway.

If he was going to blow, we wouldn't have gone for the lineout though. Might've tapped, might've kicked...

Of course, I agree we were rubbish though.

[MikeH]

The conversation went on for some time before the 10 second statement though. I'd have kicked anyway.

The Scotland Italy game the other week showed how many points you can lose by kicking for a line-out when you have a relatively straightforward kick at goal on.

[Joe Kick Ass]

Originally posted by Havak
In addition it has given the Welsh even more motivation for next weekend (like they needed any more).

I think we do, considering we now seem to be gearing up to play WC contenders again...








Edit:

Originally posted by MikeH
The conversation went on for some time before the 10 second statement though. I'd have kicked anyway.

79:56 he says 10 seconds...80:02 it's in touch...
what's the debate?

[finbar]

Originally posted by Joe Kick Ass

We'll just have to wait and see which shade of orange the young one turns out in.

You never know. She could have romped with a Seville orange.

Or, more likely, the back bar of the local pub.