Pardon Trump

[My Wife Hates CIV]

What about Russian collusion?

[My Wife Hates CIV]

Biden should not have given Hunter a pardon because it's a clear abuse of his legitimate authority for personal interest. That said, it doesn't give Trump any ammo because Trump does whatever the **** he wants to do and doesn't give one **** about norms.

So we possibly might maybe agree on something. Kinda. Cool.

[Lorizael]

What about Russian collusion?

The evidence we saw from the Mueller Report indicated that Russia wanted Trump to win and attempted to make contact with members of Trump's campaign, possibly to give them intel, that Trump staffers were receptive to the contact (rather than reporting the contact to authorities like they should have) but nothing appears to have come of it, and nothing Russia did meaningfully changed the results of the 2016 election. Also Trump fired Comey because Comey was investigating him, which we know because Trump said he fired Comey because Comey was investigating him.

[My Wife Hates CIV]

Wait. You're forgetting the proof adam has too! But why should I debate with you? You don't even know the difference between a male and female.

[BeBMan]

How about getting rid of pardoning powers. That would solve a lot of hassle. Many countries don't have them anyway.

Yeah, thats no reason. But truth is - surprise - only people who did something wrong need them.

Which is why pardoning Trump means effectively he's guilty of what he gets pardoned for

[BeBMan]

Just for the record, looks like "many countries don't have it" is wrong - many actually do, with some significant diffs to the US system, but still... /cts.

[Lorizael]

How about getting rid of pardoning powers. That would solve a lot of hassle. Many countries don't have them anyway.

There are miscarriages of justice for which it is probably useful to have a final redress.

But truth is - surprise - only people who did something wrong need them.

Which is why pardoning Trump means effectively he's guilty of what he gets pardoned for

This is historically and legally not true.

[BeBMan]

Well, it that means there are cases of innocent people that needed to be pardoned - IMO it would signal a problem in the legal system if an obvious injustice cannot be corrected in another legal way. But then I'm no legal expert, so

[Lorizael]

Wait. You're forgetting the proof adam has too! But why should I debate with you? You don't even know the difference between a male and female.

You absolutely shouldn't debate me. Doing so will give you an uneasy, icky, possibly sharp feeling in your gut when you're confronted with the utter inadequacy of your arguments, and that feeling will be unpleasant for you, possibly embarrassing or emasculating, and you'll unsuccessfully attempt to paper over it with outsized bravado and simpleminded rhetorical gotchas. In the end, you'll have accomplished nothing but to make yourself feel bad or, worse, further entrench your epistemically bankrupt beliefs.

[Lorizael]

Well, it that means there are cases of innocent people that needed to be pardoned - IMO it would signal a problem in the legal system if an obvious injustice cannot be corrected in another legal way. But then I'm no legal expert, so

The US justice system is absolute garbage and the solution is definitely not to make it harder for innocent people to earn their freedom.

[Dinner]

Well, Joe Biden pardoned Hunter Biden.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/hunter-biden-gun-case-terminated-after-pardon-delaware-judge-stops-short-full-dismissal

[The Mad Monk]

I thought that presidential pardons cannot apply to non-federal convictions (meaning state, county, municipality, parking tickets, etc.), am I mistaken in this?

[giblets]

I think you're right, Biden can't pardon Trump for his crimes against the state of New York.

[Geronimo]

I think you're right, Biden can't pardon Trump for his crimes against the state of New York.

which seems ironic given that the "crimes" against the state of New York which Trump was convicted of consisted entirely of claims he was breaking federal law to cover breaking another federal law all of which was encompassed in the perfectly legal attempt to pay hush money to someone to conceal his marital infidelity which could only be regarded as illegal if we regard the hush money as campaign contributions, "campaign contributions" which would have had little to no material impact on the campaign but whose characterization and public reporting as "campaign contributions" would definitely have made the embarrassing behavior intrinsically public and rendered utterly laughable the exercise of paying the hush money in the first place. He didn't lie under oath. he didn't waste tax payer money. he didn't actually harm any interests of any party but the state of New York recognized a crime by Trump against the state of New York in calling the hush money "legal fees" in Trump's private financial records instead of calling the hush money "campaign contributions". The whole narrative is so utterly absurd.

[N35t0r]

which seems ironic given that the "crimes" against the state of New York which Trump was convicted of consisted entirely of claims he was breaking federal law to cover breaking another federal law all of which was encompassed in the perfectly legal attempt to pay hush money to someone to conceal his marital infidelity which could only be regarded as illegal if we regard the hush money as campaign contributions, "campaign contributions" which would have had little to no material impact on the campaign but whose characterization and public reporting as "campaign contributions" would definitely have made the embarrassing behavior intrinsically public and rendered utterly laughable the exercise of paying the hush money in the first place. He didn't lie under oath. he didn't waste tax payer money. he didn't actually harm any interests of any party but the state of New York recognized a crime by Trump against the state of New York in calling the hush money "legal fees" in Trump's private financial records instead of calling the hush money "campaign contributions". The whole narrative is so utterly absurd.

It balances out with him not getting anything for hoarding top secret documents, showing/selling them to whomever, and lying to the FBI about it. Sort of a yin-yang thing.

[Lorizael]

Also he attempted an insurrection.