The Israeli and US Genocide Double Act Thread

[giblets]

they don't have slaves but they do have populations living in territories they militarily control and for which no other state is deemed to enjoy sovereignty over. Populations for whom Israel recognizes no rights as citizens of any state including Israel and for which Israel apparently accepts no responsibility to guarantee any rights for. I definitely agree that Israel needs to work non stop on a a remedy for the situation. Leaving Gaza and the West Bank as a giant sized Gitmo is totally unacceptable.

The populations they militarily control also happen to be a source of cheap labor.

[Geronimo]

The populations they militarily control also happen to be a source of cheap labor.

That's a total non factor or they'd be taking huge numbers of them out of Gaza into Israel on some kind work visa program

[N35t0r]

The original Palestinian use for the phrase was to call for a single democratic state for Arabs and Jews, as a call for peace and equality.


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Oh, you **** off as well, the original (and current) Palestinian use of the phrase was 90+% of the time a call for exterminating/expelling the state of Israel and most/all Jews, just like they were in most of the middle east and north Africa following the creation of the state of Israel.

[N35t0r]

That's a total non factor or they'd be taking huge numbers of them out of Gaza into Israel on some kind work visa program

There were almost 20k gazans with work permits before the war. For the West Bank, the total goes up to 150k.
That's not counting the over 1000 industrial plants owned and operated by Israeli businesses in the West Bank, where more than two thirds of the employees (around 20k more) are Palestinian.

That's ~3% of the current population of Israel.

In comparison, the US granted less than 300k H-2 visas (A and B) in 2020 (last year I could quickly find data on), that's less than 1‰ of the US population.

[Geronimo]

There were almost 20k gazans with work permits before the war. For the West Bank, the total goes up to 150k.
That's not counting the over 1000 industrial plants owned and operated by Israeli businesses in the West Bank, where more than two thirds of the employees (around 20k more) are Palestinian.

That's ~3% of the current population of Israel.

In comparison, the US granted less than 300k H-2 visas (A and B) in 2020 (last year I could quickly find data on), that's less than 1‰ of the US population.

The numbers you list are economically significant especially for Gaza and certainly for Israel as well but 20k Gazans working in Israel under those conditions is demographically much less significant. If 20k Gazans and 170k additional Palestinians were "enslaved" it seems especially curious that the "slave revolt" originated in Gaza rather than the West Bank.

More importantly, the entire arrangement doesn't really allow a means of extracting forced labor. The "bondage" these wage slaves endure needs to be compared to that experienced by actual slaves.

So not slavery right? 7th of Oct was clearly not a slave revolt. Calling it such is a serious insult to any actual slave who has ever lived.

It was clearly terrorism and more charitably characterized as a political insurrection but as a "slave revolt" would be a loathsome mis-characterization.

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[MOBIUS]

Oh, you **** off as well, the original (and current) Palestinian use of the phrase was 90+% of the time a call for exterminating/expelling the state of Israel and most/all Jews, just like they were in most of the middle east and north Africa following the creation of the state of Israel.

Why am I surrounded by amateurs...? 🙄

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/31/from-the-river-to-the-sea-where-does-the-slogan-come-from-and-what-does-it-mean-israel-palestine

[Geronimo]

Why am I surrounded by amateurs...? 🙄

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...rael-palestine

your link proves and settles nothing.. It certainly fails to refute N35t0r​'s post. Do you claim that Palestinian-American writer Yousef Munayyer somehow has the last word on this?

[MOBIUS]

That's the whole ****ing point! 😆

FFS, what is wrong with you people...?

The Israelis and Palestinians are two sides of the same coin. They're both Semitic peoples, they'll both tell you THEY invented hummus etc. Their histories are inextricably intertwined. They were living peacefully side by side before Zionism reared its ugly head and forcibly threw Palestinians off their land via what was effectively an internationally sanctioned invasion and land grab. The main difference is that one side systemically subjugates the other, and regularly kills vastly (VASTLY!) more of that side on a sickeningly regular basis... All blindly supported by the US - cos you can bet they wouldn't be doing all these war crimes without American support!

It's like Ming with his hurt little simplistic, 'but the other side...' crap...

Yes, FFS, many of them are bad too! But when you're forced to live in an open air concentration camp, wouldn't some of you get pissed too?

And what about the West Bank? They're behaving and they're still getting slaughtered to a lesser extent by the Israelis? So being good little Pals gets you **** all. Those living inside Israel proper are subjected to an apartheid state, etc.

What about the thousands of Lebanese civilians minding their business already killed, including dozens of Christians...?

What about the UN peacekeepers...?

Open your ****ing eyes! 🙄

[Ming]

You should open your eyes... Your simplistic view on the situation is just that... Bad Israel, Good Terrorists... got it.

[Broken_Erika]

It's turned into fascists vs Terrorists with civilians on both sides caught in the middle.

[Broken_Erika]

Israeli Soldiers Attacked Military Police at Gunpoint for Arresting Comrades Over Sde Teiman Abuse

​IDF reservists with 'Force 100' assaulted military cops coming to arrest other soldiers suspected of attacking and sexually abusing a Gazan detainee. The claim wasn't investigated, as IDF police are avoiding the inquiry due to right-wing pressure, a source says
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https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-10-15/ty-article/.premium/idf-soldiers-attacked-military-police-at-gunpoint-for-arresting-comrades-at-sde-teiman/00000192-904d-d2db-ab97-dddd31dd0000

[Broken_Erika]

A small but horrifying detail from the NYT's story on the Israeli military using Palestinians as human shields, how they're referred to insects. This is how Hutus referred to Tutsis. How slave owners referred to slaves. How the Nazis referred to Jews​

https://x.com/davidgross_man/status/1846611518693036305

[Geronimo]

I definitely think there exists a serious problem that everyone seems to think that the actions of one side of the israeli-palestinian conflict are so much less acceptable than the other that it is dangerous to concede any legitimacy with any position of the other side at all lest it be construed as suggesting some kind of dangerous moral equivalency. We have to resist falling into such logic. Israel should never have been allowed to create these bantustans in the areas in controls, especially without a plan to transition them to something sustainable and every lever, including military aid should have been used to stop it and to fix it. Hamas and Hezbollah should never have been permitted to gain control of anywhere or receive any funding.

My take is that by the time Hamas was able to "successfully execute" its 7 oct 2023 "operation" it was too late for anything other than a massive response by the IDF in the densely populated area that Hamas operates from. Trying to twist arms to constrain Isreal at that point would not only fail to save any lives long term but quite likely would only speed up the cycle to the next such "successful operation" by Hamas. At this point the focus should be on pressuring Israel to clean up the mess afterwards and on both Egypt and Israel to take in and provide safe havens for the civilians caught in the middle. If the US ends up having to provide the safe haven (much more expensive logistically) Israel and Egypt had better expect to foot the bill in diminished military aid. My guess however is that *nobody* will take the initiative to gets the population out of harm's way and that if anybody does a huge fraction of the population will refuse the offer and elect to remain in the crossfire. insanity.

[Geronimo]

I hate how we can't make small edits without it being flagged for review.

[N35t0r]

Regardless of whether one believes the response to October 7th was adequate or not, Israel doubling down on illegal settlements in the West Bank since (well, and all the downright fascist rhetoric from ¾ of the government coalition) tells me they're not even a tiny bit interested in peace and coexistence.

[Ming]

And with terrorists launching rockets at population centers, taking hostages and raping women, do you think they are?
I'm sure most of the actual people/civilians on both sides would like peace, but it doesn't seem like the leaders on both side want it.