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Last edited by Bereta_Eder; October 22, 2023, 06:09. -
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maybe we can pay these people to fight for democracy and freedom in UkraineComment
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soon after Constantine made Christianity the state religion 2 Christian armies slaughtered each other for controlOriginally posted by Bereta_Eder View Post
power corrupts and religion is a tool of power​Comment
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I don't think it can be erased. It's tiny but it has about 2 million people crammed into it. Nobody will let them out and nobody will let them be extirpated. Perhaps it will be occupied again? That will be one brutal occupation for both sides and everybody caught in-between surely.Originally posted by Bereta_Eder View PostComment
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The Palestinians already got Jordan and that didn't solve anything.Originally posted by Bereta_Eder View PostComment
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Also, the biggest change in the status quo in 50 years may well have been the Israeli departure from Gaza and it's handover to Palestinians control. It would seem last week's events would cast doubt, to say the least, on the utility of a two state solution in ending attacks against Israel.Comment
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I suspect that the way forward may require all sides getting everything they are willing to die for along with as much as possible of what they can't live without. Last week seemed to cast serious doubt on a two state solution ever meeting that minimum requirement.
For Hamas, Hezbollah and frankly most people who self identify as Palestinians I think the list of what they are willing to die for has been demonstrated to be:
*- the destruction of the Zionist entity
*- total control by Islamic believers of all mosques in the entire region
* - no religion or ethnicity elevated over Islam and its believers
I believe the last 70 years have demonstrated that it does not includes any of the following: Material wealth or material prosperity or security for themselves or their families, individual participation in democracy, individual freedom of speech or any other personal liberty, benefit or privilege apart from those necessary to submit to Islam.
For Hamas, Hezbollah and frankly most people who self identify as Palestinians I think the list of what they can't live without has been demonstrated to be: Freedom to submit to Allah in Islam, Oxygen, water, food and that's it.
For Israeli voters I think the list of what they are willing to die for has been demonstrated to be: Present and Future security for their family and loved ones, religious freedom, freedom of speech, freedom to participate in government.
For Israeli voters I think the list of what they can't live without has been demonstrated to be: Present and Future security for their family and loved ones and present and future access to Oxygen, water, food, material security, wealth, prosperity, access to education and healthcare, non participation in genocide and the continued existence in the area of ancient Judaea/Israel of a "Jewish state"
I don't think the list of what they can't live without truly includes every definition of "Jewish state" or even a particular definition of "Jewish state" it just has to satisfy a definition of "Jewish state" in some way.
In light of all that I think it's clear that the way forward is going to be strange to be successful.
I think Israel will have to be "destroyed". -normally this is taken to mean some sort of elimination of Israeli political power presumably through the death or departure of all of the Israeli Jews but that's obviously a non starter if it threatens the needs of Israeli voters so instead I think Israel should officially "destroy" itself (with that verbiage) in a constitutional reform that establishes a successor state with some sort of clean break. The new state should be granted a different name in Arabic from the name in Hebrew and the name in Hebrew should either contain "Yisra’el" or "Yehudah" along with some geographic term or other qualifier that make it conceptually distinguishable from "State of Israel". The new constitution should acknowledge that it is the sole heir of the "Jewish states" that have existed in the area at various points in history as well as the sole heir of the various non-Jewish states that have existed in the area throughout history. The constitution should define the borders of the state in general terms of agreements with the new state's neighbors. The constitution will acknowledge protection of at least all human rights previously recognized in Israel and be individually explicitly and directly called out for protection. The new successor to the state of Israel will recognize that houses of worship belong to their worshipers and that archaeological remains belong to all citizens of the new state. The new constitutional document will include no special recognition of Judaism. The right of return will either be totally removed or will include a right of return for Palestinians. suitable immigration laws and policy that do not call out Judaism or Jewish heritage for any special consideration will be implemented. This new constitution will constitute the "destruction" of Israel and the "defeat" of "Zionism". The old flag of the state of Israel will be retired for national use but retained officially in some capacity perhaps as a major design element for a new flag.
I think former citizens of the state of Israel will need a security arrangement at least as good as they have now. Besides putting a few gullible militarily capable powers on the hook for the defense of the new state (for a defined period of time) there is no way that all of the Palestinians can immediately be granted full voting rights. Instead voting will at first only be possible to all residents of the old state of Israel. The Gaza strip and occupied territories will be admitted as voting districts in which residents will become voting citizens on a per district basis with a 10 year wait for each district to join as a voting district. The 10 year wait for a district to fully join can be reduced by the district meeting certain criteria and delayed or even indefinitely postponed by failing to meet certain criteria. The most important criteria would relate to security and include things like maximum number of violent crimes traceable to the district. It must be made clear that all districts can earn full political power for it's residents.
I honestly think a one state solution like this is the only way either side will ever really get what it wants. If we say this can't work because there will always be a large population of Palestinians willing to die to kill or expel Jews from Palestine with a majority of the Palestinians supporting their efforts then for certain no two state solution will work as it will surely endlessly devolve into attacks like the recent Gaza attack. It's way past time to cut the Gordian knot of Israeli-Pal violent conflict and oppression with some kind of weird outside the box solution.Comment
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A one state solution is impossible. Even you get Palestinians to agree (which I find it difficult), Israelis never will. It will either mean an apartheid state, or the end of Israel as a Zionist country (or the first and then the second due to international pressure), and a majority of Israelis don't want that.Indifference is BlissComment
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I disagree. I think Israelis want a Zionist country certainly but I don't think they are willing to die for that or to support genocide or even apartheid to support that. Any two state solution would surely just result in more vast cross border murder operations like we saw last week. Somehow the plan forward must defuse the things the Pals on a large scale are willing to die for. Give them the destruction of the Zionist entity and it would take the wind out of their sales.Comment
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Trump criticizes Netanyahu over Hamas attack, calls Hezbollah 'smart'
​ Israel, White House and Republican opponents condemn former president's comments
​Israel and the White House on Thursday condemned remarks by former U.S. president Donald Trump in which he praised the Iran-backed militant group Hezbollah and criticized Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu over a deadly attack by Palestinian Hamas militants.
Trump is the current frontrunner to become the Republican Party's 2024 presidential nominee.
In a speech in Florida Wednesday, he called the Lebanese Hezbollah group, a sworn enemy of Israel, "very smart," and accused Netanyahu of being "not prepared" for the Hamas attack, which also killed 22 Americans.
Israeli Communications Minister Shlomo Karhi said Trump's comments to supporters and in a television interview on Wednesday night showed he could not be relied on.
It is "shameful that a man like that, a former U.S. president, abets propaganda and disseminates things that wound the spirit of Israel's fighters and its citizens," Karhi told Israel's Channel 13.
White House deputy press secretary Andrew Bates called Trump's comments "dangerous and unhinged."
"It's completely lost on us why any American would ever praise an Iran-backed terrorist organization as 'smart,' " Bates said.
​ Republican opponents critical
Democratic U.S. President Joe Biden has condemned the Hamas attack as "an act of sheer evil" and declared his unwavering support for Israel.
"This is a time for all of us to stand shoulder to shoulder with Israel against 'unadulterated evil,'" Bates said on Thursday. "That's what the president is doing."
Several of Trump's opponents in the Republican contest also criticized the former president.
"It is absurd that anyone, much less someone running for President, would choose now to attack our friend and ally, Israel, much less praise Hezbollah terrorists as 'very smart,' " Florida Governor Ron DeSantis wrote on X, formerly called Twitter.
Trump's former vice-president, Mike Pence, another 2024 rival, said in New Hampshire: "This is no time for any former president or any other American leader to be sending any message other than America stands with Israel."
Asa Hutchinson, a former Arkansas governor and a Republican 2024 candidate, said on X that Trump was "out of his mind if he thinks that any candidate for President of the United States should praise the terrorists attacking one of our most important allies."
​ Trump-Netanyahu relationship soured
Trump and Netanyahu had a close relationship during Trump's time as president, though cracks have appeared in their once ironclad rapport. Trump was annoyed when Netanyahu called to congratulate Biden on winning the 2020 presidential election against Trump, an election Trump still calls fraudulent.
Speaking to supporters in West Palm Beach, Trump said he was disclosing for the first time that Israel decided at the last minute not to take part in the U.S. assassination of Iranian general Qassem Soleimani, killed in Iraq in a drone strike on Jan. 3, 2020, which was ordered by Trump.
Trump said Israel relayed to the United States on the night before the operation that it had decided not to participate. He said Israel officials did not explain why they came to that decision."I'll never forget that Bibi Netanyahu let us down. That was a very terrible thing," Trump said, using Netanyahu's nickname.
Israel has vowed to annihilate the Hamas movement that rules the Gaza Strip, in retribution for the deadliest militant attack on civilians in Israeli history, when hundreds of gunmen crossed the barrier and rampaged through towns on Saturday.
Israeli officials say the death toll inside Israel has risen to more than 1,300. Most were civilians gunned down in their homes, on the streets or at a dance party. Scores of Israeli and foreign hostages, including Americans, were taken back to Gaza; Israel says it has identified 97 of them.
Gaza authorities said more than 1,400 Palestinians have been killed and more than 6,000 have been wounded in retaliatory airstrikes by Israel.
​https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/hamas-...rump-1.6994299I am not delusional! Now if you'll excuse me, i'm gonna go dance with the purple wombat who's playing show-tunes in my coffee cup!
Rules are like Egg's. They're fun when thrown out the window!
Difference is irrelevant when dosage is higher than recommended!Comment
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how do you do that without a state of their own? that would reduce tensionsOriginally posted by Geronimo View PostComment
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He also thinks Putin is a genius, so his opinion on smartness/genius matters is obvsly useless.Originally posted by Broken_Erika View Post
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