Announcement

**Dauphin** · November 26, 2023, 19:49

Aside from the guys having trained with Al Qaeda and a familial connection with people who prepared 9/11, they are totally unconnected.

**Berzerker** · November 26, 2023, 23:36

If they connected OBL with the attack I doubt the media would be doing puff pieces on him almost a year later. His involvement with 9/11 doesn't mean he was behind the '93 attack.

**Dauphin** · November 27, 2023, 00:34

You connect the US government with almost anything and everything nefarious, but don't see even the loose connection between Al Qaeda, Afghanistan anti-Soviet resistance alumni and the perpetrators of the WTC attack.

**N35t0r** · November 27, 2023, 04:06

Originally posted by Geronimo View Post

I think it had nothing to do with Trump. I think it's because anti vax BS took root in fringe groups that overwhelming break right on the political spectrum. Fatalities were much higher among the unvaccinated. I don't think government policies did much of anything to influence overall fatalities in hindsight.

A president is more than just policies. Trump was constantly in the media and spent a good deal of time in 2020 belittling the disease, saying Democrats were exaggerating its severity for political gains, and constantly going against science and scientist and medical figures. Do you really think all this had no effect whatsoever on fatalities? The disparity in covid death rates was there even before vaccines were available (although not as pronounced).

Also, the second Trump was out of the White House, republicans and republican media started a campaign against vaccines and Biden. You believe that Trump's rhetoric the previous 5 years, and in the aftermath of the election, had nothing to do with the anti-vaxxer and anti-masking behavior prevalent among republicans?

**Geronimo** · November 27, 2023, 10:53

Originally posted by N35t0r View Post

A president is more than just policies. Trump was constantly in the media and spent a good deal of time in 2020 belittling the disease, saying Democrats were exaggerating its severity for political gains, and constantly going against science and scientist and medical figures. Do you really think all this had no effect whatsoever on fatalities? The disparity in covid death rates was there even before vaccines were available (although not as pronounced).

Also, the second Trump was out of the White House, republicans and republican media started a campaign against vaccines and Biden. You believe that Trump's rhetoric the previous 5 years, and in the aftermath of the election, had nothing to do with the anti-vaxxer and anti-masking behavior prevalent among republicans?

Trump was a narcissist who filtered everything about the pandemic through its possible impact on his chosen stock market job performance metrics. I think he really wanted the pandemic to just go away desperately. He was definitely undermining shutdown with his rhetoric. He was also greasing the skids (figuratively) as much as possible (literally) for a working vaccine. I'm sure he would have been perfectly happy to con and to cut corners but he knew perfectly well that an ineffective vaccine would be even worse than no vaccine at all for his stock market job metrics. As a result, Trump was a president of push vaccine as fast as possible and resist social distancing overlap with the economy as much as possible and he was motivated entirely on both of these sides of Covid handling purely by the economic impact he anticipated from them.

We all expected the enormous sacrifices of the lockdowns and shutdowns to save lives. Sadly in hindsight, it looks as if the lockdowns and shutdowns actually managed to increase overall fatalities from all causes. For Covid the vaccine has been just about the only life saving tool weapon against the pandemic. So in hindsight I reject an implication that some fraction of the deaths associated with the pandemic are Trump's fault. I reject this because our shutdown/lockdown strategies (which he opposed) were costing lives and because there was essentially nothing more Trump could do to further speed access to the vaccine.

Having said all that, I do think think that many individuals died as a result of his contempt for all social distancing whatsoever. Having in-person political rallies cost the lives of perhaps hundreds of people including supporters like Herman Kane. Even if shutdowns and lockdowns did more harm than good overall simple precautions like postponing mass gatherings could have been effective and Trump's opposition is on him. The problem with seizing on that to smeer blood over Trump for Covid is that for everybody who died as a result of following his lead in that carelessness, surely many more were saved as a result of his influence in shortening and halting the harmful lockdowns.

With respect to Covid I don't really think Trump has any blood on his overall record.

**Berzerker** · November 27, 2023, 17:02

Originally posted by N35t0r View Post

A president is more than just policies. Trump was constantly in the media and spent a good deal of time in 2020 belittling the disease, saying Democrats were exaggerating its severity for political gains, and constantly going against science and scientist and medical figures. Do you really think all this had no effect whatsoever on fatalities? The disparity in covid death rates was there even before vaccines were available (although not as pronounced).

Also, the second Trump was out of the White House, republicans and republican media started a campaign against vaccines and Biden. You believe that Trump's rhetoric the previous 5 years, and in the aftermath of the election, had nothing to do with the anti-vaxxer and anti-masking behavior prevalent among republicans?

How did Trump defy Fauci? The anti-vax 'campaign' began before the 2020 election when Democrats warned against taking Trump's vaccine. And then Fauci stabbed 1st responders in the back when he dismissed the natural immunity acquired by covid survivors. He's the guy in charge claiming he is the science and he repeatedly lied about covid, its origin and his role, and the vaccine. But you think Trump is the problem.

**Berzerker** · November 28, 2023, 00:42

Woke civil war is whittling down the totem pole of victimhood

**N35t0r** · November 28, 2023, 09:10

Originally posted by Berzerker View Post

How did Trump defy Fauci? The anti-vax 'campaign' began before the 2020 election when Democrats warned against taking Trump's vaccine. And then Fauci stabbed 1st responders in the back when he dismissed the natural immunity acquired by covid survivors. He's the guy in charge claiming he is the science and he repeatedly lied about covid, its origin and his role, and the vaccine. But you think Trump is the problem.

I'm not going to waste time replying to you. You constantly ignore and misrepresent facts and go off on wild tangents. A lot of your 'arguments' were already discussed earlier and you just ignore, whatabout, and at best post random YouTube videos.

For example, Democrats never "warned against taking trump's vaccine", when Trump was putting pressure on the FDA they warned against that. Or would you be fine if the FDA modified it's stated procedure just so that it could approve the vaccine before the elections?

Either argue in good faith or go away.

**Berzerker** · November 28, 2023, 19:22

reuters.com

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-biden-idUSKBN2671NW/

Before the election Democrats were warning about Trump's vaccine, after the election they mandated it. The vaccine was available a month after the election, so what changed between November and December of '20 to allay the fears of Democrats about Trump's rushed vaccine? Biden won... Democrats didn't want Trump getting credit so they scared people into thinking Trump's vaccine was dangerous. How's that for good faith

**N35t0r** · November 28, 2023, 19:39

Originally posted by Berzerker View Post

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...idUSKBN2671NW/

Before the election Democrats were warning about Trump's vaccine, after the election they mandated it. The vaccine was available a month after the election, so what changed between November and December of '20 to allay the fears of Democrats about Trump's rushed vaccine? Biden won... Democrats didn't want Trump getting credit so they scared people into thinking Trump's vaccine was dangerous. How's that for good faith

It's even in the ****ing article title ffs.

You should ask for a refund on your education.

**Berzerker** · November 28, 2023, 20:07

Maybe our Democrat friends in big pharma delayed the vaccine... maybe... Dems were saying dont rush it before the election. Were they saying that a month later in December when Trump authorised use of the vax? Should have been outrage over Trump's rushed vaccine going public but I guess the danger was eliminated.

**Berzerker** · November 28, 2023, 20:28

Originally posted by N35t0r View Post

It's even in the ****ing article title ffs.

You should ask for a refund on your education.

Yup, right there in the title... Biden warns against Trump's vaccine and tells people to slow down development (until after the election ofc). Was he a private citizen at that point? Did Fauci accuse Trump of rushing it? Did Biden sound the alarm bells when Trump's vaccine came out a month after the election? The Democrat narrative was Trump's vaccine is dangerous because Trump was rushing it. After the election the narrative changed, take the vaccine or lose your jobs.

**Berzerker** · November 28, 2023, 20:54

Trump is dangerous
Trump is evil
Trump is Hitler
Trump cant be trusted, he's rushing the vaccine

Did that promote trust or distrust in the vaccine?

**-Jrabbit** · November 28, 2023, 21:11

Berz, we all lived through this and the scenarios you keep regurgitating simply did not happen that way. The actual narrative was "trust the science and keep politics out of the process."

On the campaign trail, Trump kept suggesting that the vaccine would be ready before the election, and Biden called him on his BS. Biden NEVER suggested that vaccine R&D be slowed down, despite what you falsely suggest. Here's what he actually said:

"Scientific breakthroughs don’t care about calendars any more than the virus does. They certainly don’t adhere to election cycles. And their timing, their approval and distribution, should never, ever be distorted by political considerations," he said.

That's common sense, not a political attack. And the quote is from your linked Reuters article.

Also, please stop trying to imitate Tucker "Just Asking Questions" Carlson.

**N35t0r** · November 29, 2023, 02:09

Originally posted by Berzerker View Post

Yup, right there in the title... Biden warns against Trump's vaccine and tells people to slow down development (until after the election ofc). Was he a private citizen at that point? Did Fauci accuse Trump of rushing it? Did Biden sound the alarm bells when Trump's vaccine came out a month after the election? The Democrat narrative was Trump's vaccine is dangerous because Trump was rushing it. After the election the narrative changed, take the vaccine or lose your jobs.

My 6-year-old with English as a third language has better reading comprehension skills than you.

Announcement

Politics Thread

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment