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How the West tempted Putin.

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  • How the West tempted Putin.

    First off I want to make clear that just as Hitler and the fascists were solely guilty of the crime of WW2 ,(even though many other states and governments failed to act in ways that may have prevented it) I recognize that Putin alone bears guilt for the military action deaths in Ukraine since late 2013 and especially in 2022.

    That said, I think too little attention has been paid to the many enormous mistakes that made Putin's actions in Ukraine vastly more likely.

    I am especially alarmed that so little attention has been paid to Putin's apparent desire to ensure that any instances of Western disregard of international law and norms should allow for similar violations to serve Russian interests as well. How often has Putin cited NATO intervention in Serbia and NATO support and direct military intervention to ensure a weak separatist movement became a defacto independent new state at Serbia's expense? Most importantly, how can the West act in a manner that clearly involved external promotion of and external military intervention to ensure independence in Kosovo without also completely abandoning any international proscriptions against doing so?

    If the West had not split Kosovo off of Serbia, especially after a massive air campaign to destroy the Serbian infrastructure and economy, how much less tempted would Putin have been to risk doing the same and how much easier would it be to broaden the participation in sanctions for Putin or anybody else doing so? It looks like hypocrisy because it is, and functional international law abhors hypocrisy.

    Putin has also repeatedly invoked the increased danger and threat of NATO expansion resulting from NATO aggression as justification for his actions. NATO members attempt to refute this by pointing out that NATO is a purely defensive bloc. How much less credible is that claim now that NATO has waged large scale offensive operations in Serbia *and* multiple countries of the southern Mediterranean coast without so much of a token invocation of article 5?

    Furthermore, when Bush invaded Iraq with his coalition of the willing, with no direct immediate threat by Iraq to any country and not even evidence of an Iraqi post-war WMD test, let alone a nuclear test, for an anti proliferation argument how much easier did it become for Putin to do the same to Ukraine based on flimsy defence concerns relating to NATO expansion?

    It should be obvious that the West needs to take the bull by the horns and disavow these past actions to have the slightest hope of reviving broad respect for the now dead letter of international law with respect to aggression without a UN mandate. Is there any realistic way this could be accomplished? Perhaps an amendment to the NATO charter and a US domestic law setting a higher bar in line with international norms to reign in war-monger presidents?

    If nothing can be done, the world should prepare itself not only for these crimes becoming far more common but also for total absence of consensus in sanctions and other responses by actors outside of directly interested bloc to such crimes.
    Last edited by Geronimo; June 14, 2022, 09:23. Reason: Without NATO aggression NATO expansion is non threatening

  • #2
    Originally posted by Geronimo View Post
    Putin has also repeatedly invoked the increased danger and threat of NATO aggression resulting from NATO expansion as justification for his actions. NATO members attempt to refute this by pointing out that NATO is a purely defensive bloc. How much less credible is that claim now that NATO has waged large scale offensive operations in Serbia *and* multiple countries of the southern Mediterranean coast without so much of a token invocation of article 5?
    Yes, Putin has used this propaganda bull**** a lot.
    Blah

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Geronimo View Post
      ...

      Furthermore, when Bush invaded Iraq with his coalition of the willing, with no direct immediate threat by Iraq to any country and not even evidence of an Iraqi post-war WMD test, let alone a nuclear test, for an anti proliferation argument how much easier did it become for Putin to do the same to Ukraine based on flimsy defence concerns relating to NATO expansion?

      ....
      At this point Putin, however, had already had invaded Chechnya ... also under the alleged pretext of terrorism (thia was 2 years prior to the start of Bush jrs Iraq war) with numerous atrocities commited by his soldiers

      So, at this point, it would be rather hypocritical of Putin/the Russians to complain about the invasion of Iraq, considering that they weren't better when it comes to invading other countries

      Also not to forget the numerous other ars fought by Russia before Putin:
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...2%80%93present)

      For example
      1991 ... against Georgia (in support of Abchasia)
      1992 ... against Moldova (in support of the Transnistrian separatist)
      and several others, see the list in he link above

      I agree, however, that NATO / the West tempted Putin.
      By still appeasing to Putin after his 2nd Georgian war (in 2008) and even after his annexation of Crimea ...
      and making themselves to become too dependant on russian oil and gas

      It is no surprise that, by this dependency of the west on russian gas/oil imports, Putin gave in to the temptation to believe,
      that the west would, again, do nothing sustantial, if Putin were to start a full invasion of Ukraina
      Last edited by Proteus_MST; June 13, 2022, 05:02.
      Tamsin (Lost Girl): "I am the Harbinger of Death. I arrive on winds of blessed air. Air that you no longer deserve."
      Tamsin (Lost Girl): "He has fallen in battle and I must take him to the Einherjar in Valhalla"

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by BeBro View Post

        Yes, Putin has used this propaganda bull**** a lot.
        I hope you don't think that when a habitual pathological liar says something it makes it untrue?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Geronimo View Post

          I hope you don't think that when a habitual pathological liar says something it makes it untrue?

          Souvereign countries making their own decisions, like what alliance to join getting turned into "the increased danger and threat of NATO aggression resulting from NATO expansion" means de facto Russia/Putin does not accept souvereign nations at his border. Which is supported by his own remarks regarding Ukraine.

          This is not anyone "tempting" him, it is nothing else than highlighting Putin's imperialist mindset.
          Blah

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          • #6
            I can not see how the bombing Serbia into submission had any basis in "international law".

            The invasion of Iraq seemed more like a mugging than anything legal.

            We are not really in good position to say we are holier than thou.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Proteus_MST View Post

              At this point Putin, however, had already had invaded Chechnya ... also under the alleged pretext of terrorism (thia was 2 years prior to the start of Bush jrs Iraq war) with numerous atrocities commited by his soldiers

              So, at this point, it would be rather hypocritical of Putin/the Russians to complain about the invasion of Iraq, considering that they weren't better when it comes to invading other countries
              Chechnya was never recognized as an independent state. You really think military campaigns against separatist areas have the same status under international law and norms as campaigns into recognized independent states?

              Originally posted by Proteus_MST View Post
              Also not to forget the numerous other ars fought by Russia before Putin:
              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...2%80%93present)

              For example
              1991 ... against Georgia (in support of Abchasia)
              1992 ... against Moldova (in support of the Transnistrian separatist)
              and several others, see the list in he link above

              I agree, however, that NATO / the West tempted Putin.
              By still appeasing to Putin after his 2nd Georgian war (in 2008) and even after his annexation of Crimea ...
              and making themselves to become too dependant on russian oil and gas

              It is no surprise that, by this dependency of the west on russian gas/oil imports, Putin gave in to the temptation to believe,
              that the west would, again, do nothing sustantial, if Putin were to start a full invasion of Ukraine
              I agree with these points except to note that it's a non starter to try to simultaneously condemn Russia for intervening on behalf of separatists while condemning responding against separatists within their own borders.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by BeBro View Post


                Souvereign countries making their own decisions, like what alliance to join getting turned into "the increased danger and threat of NATO aggression resulting from NATO expansion" means de facto Russia/Putin does not accept souvereign nations at his border. Which is supported by his own remarks regarding Ukraine.

                This is not anyone "tempting" him, it is nothing else than highlighting Putin's imperialist mindset.
                NATO attacking states outside of article 5 undermines its credibility as a purely defensive bloc. You disagree?

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                • #9
                  I disagree that this has any role in "tempting" Putin in regard to his current agression in Ukraine. The whole "NATO expansion is threatening us" line is nonsense.
                  Blah

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                  • #10
                    Unless by threatening you mean "we can not invade neighbors at our own convenience anymore"
                    "Ceterum censeo Ben esse expellendum."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Putin and Peter the Great: Russian leader likens himself to 18th Century tsar
                      With a nod to history, Putin now feels bold enough to admit that his operation is an occupation.


                      Interesting bits in there, like did Peter the Great wage war in the north for 20 yrs+ because he was tempted by others, even a giant western alliance?

                      "You might think he was fighting with Sweden, seizing their lands," Mr Putin said, referring to the Northern Wars which Peter launched at the turn of the 18th Century as he forged a new Russian Empire.

                      "But he seized nothing; he reclaimed it!" he said, arguing that Slavs had lived in the area for centuries.
                      We learn: you can justify wars by pointing to some ppl living in some place at some point during history, even centuries before NATO.
                      Blah

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by dannubis View Post
                        Unless by threatening you mean "we can not invade neighbors at our own convenience anymore"
                        He could have credibly felt the security of Belarus was threatened.

                        I agree that the idea that Russia itself would ever be in danger of military attack from NATO was indeed laughable. There's the outside possibility, however, that Putin may have thought it plausible through a grossly distorted view of NATO priorities and risk assessments.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by BeBro View Post

                          With a nod to history, Putin now feels bold enough to admit that his operation is an occupation.


                          Interesting bits in there, like did Peter the Great wage war in the north for 20 yrs+ because he was tempted by others, even a giant western alliance?
                          Peter the Great definitely looked to the conduct of western powers for precedent for his own actions.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Last summer:

                            Putin’s new Ukraine essay reveals imperial ambitions

                            (...)
                            The Russian leader uses the essay to reiterate his frequently voiced conviction that Russians and Ukrainians are “one people,” while blaming the current collapse in bilateral ties on foreign plots and anti-Russian conspiracies.

                            In one particularly ominous passage, he openly questions the legitimacy of Ukraine’s borders and argues that much of modern-day Ukraine occupies historically Russian lands, before stating matter of factly, “Russia was robbed.” Elsewhere, he hints at a fresh annexation of Ukrainian territory, claiming, “I am becoming more and more convinced of this: Kyiv simply does not need Donbas.”

                            Putin ends his lengthy treatise by appearing to suggest that Ukrainian statehood itself ultimately depends on Moscow’s consent, declaring, “I am confident that true sovereignty of Ukraine is possible only in partnership with Russia.”
                            (...)
                            Russian President Vladimir Putin has outlined the historical basis for his claims against Ukraine in a controversial new essay that has been likened in some quarters to a declaration of war.


                            I don't see how NATO fits into this historic "Ukraine is essentially Russia" POV. If his historic perspective is correct, it could not be different without NATO even existing.
                            Blah

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                            • Berzerker
                              Berzerker commented
                              Editing a comment
                              atlantic council took $$$ from Burisma to smear the prosecutor raiding them

                          • #15
                            Originally posted by Geronimo View Post

                            Peter the Great definitely looked to the conduct of western powers for precedent for his own actions.
                            Irrelevant. All countries had the right to (wage) war in the 18th century, that *was intl law back then, as everybody saw war as legitimate means to solve conflicts. This is not the case today. Violations of intl law, Iraq, whatnot - all fine and argued back and forth in this place. It does not justify anything Putin does now, still.
                            Blah

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