Prediction Thread: When Will Ukraine Conquer Russia

[Geronimo]

Sorry Berz. Such a long reply on a phone requires lots of edits and lots of edits eventually lead the post to be banished to approval land.

[Geronimo]

My 'definition' is about the victims of an 8 year war getting to vote for their freedom and you're comparing them to slave owners? Slavery was not self determination so no, I wouldn't support the south. Your analogy would be better if northern states seceded rather than help perpetuate slavery and they got attacked by the south. That would at least compare the slave owners to the puppet masters feeding Ukrainians to the war machine.

Do you know what 'voting' in Russian occupied Ukraine has been? Armed teams of Russian soldiers visit your home. There are no publicized rules for collection of the vote. Instead the soldiers may choose to verbally ask you your choice and write it down for you out of sight. Do you call that 'getting to vote for their freedom'? How are such elections in any way 'self determination'? How will self determination exist in any way for the Donbas residents after being annexed to Russia?

The individual is sovereign and we all have borders. I'm American, the only international rule we have is do what we say. In that phone call with Pyatt and Nuland before the coup when she chose Ukraine's next leader she said f the EU or something to that effect. What international rule says the USA can pick Ukraine's next leader? Or invade Iraq over phony WMD. What international rule says massacring cops and protesters to get rid of sitting leaders has the world's approval? My thought process: the people of the Donbas did not attack Kiev, they protested the coup and Kiev attacked them. Yes and yes... and Tibet. I draw lines where I see right and wrong.

Why do you say Nuland chose the leader? The leaked phonecall?

Https://www.BBC.com/news/world-europe-26079957

Quote me the juicy bit that demonstrates that Nuland controlled the selection process or even held decisive influence.

Everything about the conversation sounds like someone on the outside of a process trying to influence it. It makes no sense as an individual in control of the process or representing someone in control of the process.

Why wouldn't you expect foreign governments to have preferences in the selection and to connive internally about what those preferences are? If the US lost patience with the EU and decided to push independent of the EU we'd expect just what we see. If the US was directing the selection this conversation would be totally unnecessary.

You maintain that Ukrainians were disenfranchised by US control. How could such control be exercised?

We know from Putin's 2014 top Ukraine advisor's public comments in a 06MAR2014 Kommersant.ua interview that Russia pushed the bizarre interpretation of the Budapest memorandum that it required the UK, Russia and the US to "intervene" in the event of a "coup" in Ukraine and that Viktor Yanukovych was justified in use of force and that Russia was justified and required to "intervene" in Ukraine. If the US controlled Ukraine, given these comments by Russia why wouldn't we expect Russia to simply take over control by whatever levers the US was exercising? It obviously wouldn't be self-restraint stopping them, in light of those comments.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26068994

The only interpretation that makes sense is that both powers moved to influence but that Ukrainians remained in control.

I thought you didn't like "analogies'? Now you bring up Iraq? I do think your fear of "analogies" obviously arises from the light they shed on your cognitive dissonance and double standards.

If the US in Iraq in 2003 was wrong then Russia in Ukraine 2014 and 2022 was wrong for nearly all of the same reasons.

[BeBMan]

Apart from being a disaster and warcrime - is it also an admission that Kherson is not Russia? What's the world coming to when you can't even trust annexations declared in the Kremlin anymore

[EPW]

War crimes intensifying.

[pchang]

Looks like Russia blew the dam by Kherson. Ukraine must have been about to cross the river.

[-Jrabbit]

It's Ukrainian land. You can't blame Ukraine for retaking land from the invaders/occupiers. That's beyond unreasonable. And there is exactly zero reason or excuse to believe that Ukraine troops would endanger Ukrainian schoolchildren.

[-Jrabbit]

So you admit to your war crimes.

[-Jrabbit]

You can't possibly be that naive. Tens of thousands of kids removed, many deep across borders, and your response is to be impressed by the Russian spin on exactly one example -- and a poor spin at that. "Yeah, we took those kids, but trust me, our motives were noble" is not exactly a strong defense for kidnapping.

[Berzerker]

Hopefully without more analogies

[Geronimo]

My 'definition' is about the victims of an 8 year war getting to vote for their freedom and you're comparing them to slave owners? Slavery was not self determination so no, I wouldn't support the south. Your analogy would be better if northern states seceded rather than help perpetuate slavery and they got attacked by the south. That would at least compare the slave owners to the puppet masters feeding Ukrainians to the war machine.

The individual is sovereign and we all have borders. I'm American, the only international rule we have is do what we say. In that phone call with Pyatt and Nuland before the coup when she chose Ukraine's next leader she said f the EU or something to that effect. What international rule says the USA can pick Ukraine's next leader? Or invade Iraq over phony WMD. What international rule says massacring cops and protesters to get rid of sitting leaders has the world's approval? My thought process: the people of the Donbas did not attack Kiev, they protested the coup and Kiev attacked them. Yes and yes... and Tibet. I draw lines where I see right and wrong.

There is so much face palm in this it's going to take a while to respond.

[Berzerker]

So by this definition you would have supported the Confederacy in the US Civil war?

What does sovereignty mean to you? Do borders matter?

Is their a purpose to any international rules?

What exactly does your thought process mean?

Do you support Taiwan unilaterally declaring independence?

What about Quebec?

Where exactly do you draw a line?

Or, do you?

My 'definition' is about the victims of an 8 year war getting to vote for their freedom and you're comparing them to slave owners? Slavery was not self determination so no, I wouldn't support the south. Your analogy would be better if northern states seceded rather than help perpetuate slavery and they got attacked by the south. That would at least compare the slave owners to the puppet masters feeding Ukrainians to the war machine.

The individual is sovereign and we all have borders. I'm American, the only international rule we have is do what we say. In that phone call with Pyatt and Nuland before the coup when she chose Ukraine's next leader she said f the EU or something to that effect. What international rule says the USA can pick Ukraine's next leader? Or invade Iraq over phony WMD. What international rule says massacring cops and protesters to get rid of sitting leaders has the world's approval? My thought process: the people of the Donbas did not attack Kiev, they protested the coup and Kiev attacked them. Yes and yes... and Tibet. I draw lines where I see right and wrong.

[Berzerker]

Ah, so you agree that the ukrainians should have the right to return to Ukraine instead of being occupied by russian forces.

They wont be returning to Ukraine, Kiev torched that bridge in 2014. But yes, if they wanted that it should be up to them.

[PLATO]

I think the people living there should decide their future, not the people attacking them for 8 years.

So by this definition you would have supported the Confederacy in the US Civil war?

What does sovereignty mean to you? Do borders matter?

Is their a purpose to any international rules?

What exactly does your thought process mean?

Do you support Taiwan unilaterally declaring independence?

What about Quebec?

Where exactly do you draw a line?

Or, do you?

[BlackCat]

I think the people living there should decide their future, not the people attacking them for 8 years.

Ah, so you agree that the ukrainians should have the right to return to Ukraine instead of being occupied by russian forces.

[BlackCat]

Another curiosity - why the heck are your comment raised, black, another font size and hidden