Outside self defense-Is War ever justified?

[PLATO]

Does a country ever have a right to go to war when they are not being attacked? If so, where is the line? And if there is a line, will Russia cross it?

I believe that at some point those with the ability to act must act when circumstances get to the point of genocide going on. I don't think we are there in Ukraine, but Russia has, at least, put that thought on the table. How long can the world stand by and watch thousands be slaughtered? When is the cost worth saying "Enough!"?

[Buster Crabbe's Uncle]

That's not a terrifically conservative stance you're taking there, Plato. Are we to be the world's police? Is violence ever the right answer to violence? Has the US got that great a history with 'Police Actions'?

I'm not sure - war is bad, but then it'd have been mighty bad if we hadn't pitched in against Hitler, too.

[ZEE]

Does a country ever have a right to go to war when they are not being attacked? If so, where is the line? And if there is a line, will Russia cross it?

I believe that at some point those with the ability to act must act when circumstances get to the point of genocide going on. I don't think we are there in Ukraine, but Russia has, at least, put that thought on the table. How long can the world stand by and watch thousands be slaughtered? When is the cost worth saying "Enough!"?

Clearly you have never played Civ

[My Wife Hates CIV]

only if you win.

[N35t0r]

That's not a terrifically conservative stance you're taking there, Plato. Are we to be the world's police? Is violence ever the right answer to violence? Has the US got that great a history with 'Police Actions'?

I'm not sure - war is bad, but then it'd have been mighty bad if we hadn't pitched in against Hitler, too.

You only went to war when you were directly attacked though

[Buster Crabbe's Uncle]

-When Hitler foolishly cosigned an ally's act that he had nothing to do with - and then we had a 'Europe First' policy anyway. [shrugs]

[N35t0r]

I mean, it's a good thing you finally showed up. Argentina's showing was decidedly... lackluster.

[pchang]

Argentina seemed to get a bunch of immigrants from "Austria" right after WW2......

[Dauphin]

Are you talking about 'Just War' theory here? I thought the concept basically went the way of the dodo and is now simply might is right, with lip service paid to justifications.

[BeBMan]

In theory the UN already has a framework to react to military aggression or gross violations of humans rights with a variety of measures, incl. an authorization for the use of force -- so that would justify military action beyond a simple case of self-defense of your own country.

The prob tho is that these mechanism are open to abuse, and/or that in the current setup the perma-UNSC members can block anything they don't like, rendering the whole UN ineffective.

That aside I think in regards to Russia now the reasoning to not act is simply to avoid escalating a regional conflict to an open war that involves countries armed with the bulk of the world's nuclear arsenal.

[Bereta_Eder]

I think your own question includes the answer and it is a very cynical one despite your no doubt good intentions.

There were and are genocides happening all over the planet. Yemen for example.
You (we) focus on ukraine because it is in our elites' best interests to focus on ukraine.

The so called interest is nothing more than a cold calculation of the benefits an intervantion will or will not bring to the interested parties.


So genocide in Yemen (by saudi arabia which does not have nuclear weapons and so could be averted easily), well yes it is so very sad....


"Genocide" in ukraine where the weaknening of russia fulfis some geopolitical interests, oh god we must act.

There is absolutely no morality on nations. On people yes but on nations no

[PLATO]

I think your own question includes the answer and it is a very cynical one despite your no doubt good intentions.

There were and are genocides happening all over the planet. Yemen for example.
You (we) focus on ukraine because it is in our elites' best interests to focus on ukraine.

The so called interest is nothing more than a cold calculation of the benefits an intervantion will or will not bring to the interested parties.


So genocide in Yemen (by saudi arabia which does not have nuclear weapons and so could be averted easily), well yes it is so very sad....


"Genocide" in ukraine where the weaknening of russia fulfis some geopolitical interests, oh god we must act.

There is absolutely no morality on nations. On people yes but on nations no

I think you are right on this. The West easily ignores issues that are not on their doorstep or in their national interest. It is in the West's interest to ignore Yemen...just as it was in Rwanda. Ukraine, however...it is Europe and the media screams about "war in Europe" about as loudly as anything. I guess that is a result of the huge numbers of dead from WWI and WWII.

Still though...if it is "on the doorstep" and National Interest are at stake...is that not even more of a reason to stop what you can? I guess it is not simply a moral question (although arguably, it should be)

[Buster Crabbe's Uncle]

It's essentially true. There is no morality in statecraft.

[PLATO]

That's not a terrifically conservative stance you're taking there, Plato.

True indeed

Are we to be the world's police?

No, I don't think so, but that does not preclude us picking our moments to intervene.

Is violence ever the right answer to violence?

"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." Hard not to say the US foriegn policy wrt Russia has been anything less than incompetent. Yet...here we are.

Has the US got that great a history with 'Police Actions'?

Sadly, I think we all know the answer to that.

I'm not sure - war is bad, but then it'd have been mighty bad if we hadn't pitched in against Hitler, too.

Would it have been better if we had entered the war earlier? In retrospect it is easy to see that the US would fight in WWII. I imagine in 1940, it was a much different thought process. Are we mirroring that now? Is it inevitable that the US and the West will fight? Or have we learned how to win by just being "the arsenal of democracy"?

[Buster Crabbe's Uncle]

And isn't it immoral not to step in when heinous murdery **** is going down you could put a stop to?

-You might gather that I'm ambivalent...