Escalation

[Kidlicious]

Aeson is just making a big dea about nothing. The US was *united* with the USSR during WW2, it isn't something nefarious.

[Berzerker]

The chant and tiki torches occured at both rallies. Both were smaller events that happened at night before the official Unite the Right rally.

The chant was also taken up during the daytime march in the Unite the Right rally. As were many other anti-semetic signs, chants, and other racially charged chants/slogans.

Trump condemned them. Again, they were a minority of the protesters. You're pointing at them to smear everyone else. You're not arguing Trump called neo-Nazis fine people, you're arguing the fine people Trump identified are not fine people. So what? The media narrative is Trump called neo-Nazis fine people. That means everyone on both sides were neo-Nazis, right?

I'm not saying they like Neo Nazis. I'm saying they willingly chose to march with Neo Nazis and White Supremacists without any imperative that they do so. Why they did so is irrelevent and the reasons will vary from individual to individual. But in any case, a "fine person" would not do such a thing. A fine person would not associate themselves willfully with such a rally. The statue is STILL there, and will likely be there for decades to come. There was and is no time critical aspect to such a rally that would necessitate associating with those you despise.

The imperative was to protest the removal of a statue the city council voted to get rid of and the statue is still there because of the protests. They weren't marching with the neo-Nazis, they were marching with people supporting the statue. Obviously Trump doesn't agree with your definition of fine people, his includes peaceful protesters on both sides of the issue. He condemned Antifa too, yet he said there were fine people on both sides. So who was he talking about? The people protesting peacefully who were not Antifa and neo-Nazis.

Marching with the KKK, White Nationalists, or Neo Nazis only weakens your argument. Because what you are asying is "whatever my argument is" plus ... "I want to associate my cause with horrible racism"

If the Million Man March had had 2 obviously hateful precursors, and had been a bunch of people chanting "Jews will not replace us" ... or some other hateful thing ... and had groups planning to show up to do horribly racist things that everyone knew they were going to do ... then yes. But the Million Man March had had no precursor which had devolved into horrible racism, and no reason to suspect that it would devolve into horrible racism ... and didn't devolve into horrible racism.

The analog you are looking for is the one I've already mentioned as the analog. Anyone who marched with Black Lives Matter while they were chanting "Pigs in a blanket, fry them like bacon" was not a "fine person".

But the million man march was organized by Louis Farrakhan and his nation of Islam. They dont hate? All those people attended a march organized by hateful people, but no guilt by association for them? I disagree with you, I dont hold BLM protesters accountable for what other BLM protesters chant. If you attend a free speech rally and communists or neo-Nazis show up spouting their ideologies, you dont become a bad person for staying to defend free speech.

I myself do not think the statues should be taken down.

Well there's irony, I do.

But I'm not going to show up and march alongside the KKK to voice my opinion, because I'M MUCH MORE FIRMLY AGAINST THE NEO NAZIS AND WHITE NATIONALISM THAN TAKING DOWN A STATUE.

You're not marching along side them. You keep painting this picture of people protesting for the statue of walking hand in hand with neo-Nazis.

If somehow I had unwittingly showed up to such an event I would have crossed sides and counterdemonstrated the Neo Nazis and White Nationalists. Sadly the non Neo Nazis and non White Supremacist people at the Unite the Right rally couldn't say the same. That is why in my book they were not "fine people", though I do hope they have learned to be better people in the interim.

And how would you feel about people on your side attacking protesters? Thats quite a dilemma, you show up to support a statue and see neo-Nazis and join the counter protesters even though they're attacking people who agree with you about the statue. Neo-Nazis bad, violently suppressing speech, good?

Of course it matters.

If government is attacking people for their associations it is INFRINGING on their FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS. If I say attending a rally organized by a White Supremacist, knowing White Supremacists and KKK will be there, marching alongside them as they chant antisemetic chants and wave swastikas ... it makes you not a "fine person" ... That's EXERCISING my FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS.

The difference between EXERCISING a right and INFRINGING on that right is immense.

We're not talking about the 1st Amendment. We're talking about using guilt by association to smear people. Thats what Joe McCarthy did and its what you are doing.

And he was wrong to not call out those who were marching alongside the Neo Nazis and White Supremacists. They were not "fine people". They were people who were willing to march alongside Neo Nazis and White Supremacists while horrific racist and anti-semitic chants and slogas were used. That's damning enough.

He was wrong to not smear people with your guilt by association?

"But, but, but someone else said ..."

So you're okay with media propaganda?

For me it's damning enough that he took so long to call out the Neo Nazis and White Supremacists (and not just in this instance either), and that he called those who rallied alongside them "fine people".

He didn't take long, he condemned the violence the day of the brawl and waited for the facts to come in before a more lengthy press conference 2-3 days later during which he described peaceful protesters on both sides of the issue as fine people while condemning the violent people, neo-Nazis, white supremacists and Antifa. Who are these people who rallied alongside the neo-Nazis? Where were the militia folk in those images of neo-Nazis and Antifa duking it out? They had guns, they weren't fighting. Nobody wanted to fight with them. They kept the peace. Wherever they went a safe space was created for anyone who didn't want to fight. I imagine some of them were vets too, you may not think of them as fine people but so what? They're not neo-Nazis.

[Berzerker]

thats because he didn't know who they were other than peaceful protesters and got confused, in the same press conference he condemned the neo-Nazis

[Aeson]

It's even worse than I remembered. Trump was specifically calling the Tiki Torch Rally the night before the "fine people".

[giblets]

[Aeson]

So the media showed footage of a neo-Nazi rally from May alongside Trump's comment about a protest in favor of a statue in August. That doesn't help their case.

You're doing what the media did, you're quoting the neo-Nazi chant from May to smear people protesting the statue's removal in August.

The chant and tiki torches occured at both rallies. Both were smaller events that happened at night before the official Unite the Right rally.

The chant was also taken up during the daytime march in the Unite the Right rally. As were many other anti-semetic signs, chants, and other racially charged chants/slogans.

Why do you assume everyone supporting the statue attended because they liked neo-Nazis?

I'm not saying they like Neo Nazis. I'm saying they willingly chose to march with Neo Nazis and White Supremacists without any imperative that they do so. Why they did so is irrelevent and the reasons will vary from individual to individual. But in any case, a "fine person" would not do such a thing. A fine person would not associate themselves willfully with such a rally. The statue is STILL there, and will likely be there for decades to come. There was and is no time critical aspect to such a rally that would necessitate associating with those you despise. (

There is strength in numbers, if you want to protest doing it by yourself wont be heard as loud as joining a thousand people.

Marching with the KKK, White Nationalists, or Neo Nazis only weakens your argument. Because what you are asying is "whatever my argument is" plus ... "I want to associate my cause with horrible racism"

The one man march cant compare to the million man march - and speaking of the latter, Louis Farrakhan organized that. Do you condemn all the people who showed up?

If the Million Man March had had 2 obviously hateful precursors, and had been a bunch of people chanting "Jews will not replace us" ... or some other hateful thing ... and had groups planning to show up to do horribly racist things that everyone knew they were going to do ... then yes. But the Million Man March had had no precursor which had devolved into horrible racism, and no reason to suspect that it would devolve into horrible racism ... and didn't devolve into horrible racism.

The analog you are looking for is the one I've already mentioned as the analog. Anyone who marched with Black Lives Matter while they were chanting "Pigs in a blanket, fry them like bacon" was not a "fine person".

If you supported the statue and heard a protest was this weekend you'd attend without knowing or caring who else was coming. That doesn't make you a neo-Nazi anymore than attending a free speech rally makes you a communist because commies showed up. But it would in Joe McCarthy's mind.

I myself do not think the statues should be taken down. But I'm not going to show up and march alongside the KKK to voice my opinion, because I'M MUCH MORE FIRMLY AGAINST THE NEO NAZIS AND WHITE NATIONALISM THAN TAKING DOWN A STATUE. If somehow I had unwittingly showed up to such an event I would have crossed sides and counterdemonstrated the Neo Nazis and White Nationalists. Sadly the non Neo Nazis and non White Supremacist people at the Unite the Right rally couldn't say the same. That is why in my book they were not "fine people", though I do hope they have learned to be better people in the interim.

You can't march alongside a swastika with racist chants going on and pretend your hands aren't dirty.

McCarthyism employed a guilt by association you are using to smear the 'fine people' there to protest the removal of a statue, neo-Nazis were a minority of the protesters. It doesn't matter if the government was involved, the smear is the same.

Of course it matters.

If government is attacking people for their associations it is INFRINGING on their FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS. If I say attending a rally organized by a White Supremacist, knowing White Supremacists and KKK will be there, marching alongside them as they chant antisemetic chants and wave swastikas ... it makes you not a "fine person" ... That's EXERCISING my FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS.

The difference between EXERCISING a right and INFRINGING on that right is immense.

And I'll say it again, when Trump said there were fine people on both sides he also specifically excluded neo-Nazis and white supremacists.

And he was wrong to not call out those who were marching alongside the Neo Nazis and White Supremacists. They were not "fine people". They were people who were willing to march alongside Neo Nazis and White Supremacists while horrific racist and anti-semitic chants and slogas were used. That's damning enough.

But the media edits that out because they cant show Trump condemning neo-Nazis when the media is claiming he said they were fine people.

"But, but, but someone else said ..."

For me it's damning enough that he took so long to call out the Neo Nazis and White Supremacists (and not just in this instance either), and that he called those who rallied alongside them "fine people".

[Berzerker]

The night time tiki torch rally was earlier in the year in May, and was in large part responsible for bringing the issue to the national level. Richard Spencer (avowed White Nationalist) set that one up. There was also a KKK rally a month earlier. These rallies set the stage for the Unite the Right rally. Anyone attending had to have known who they were uniting with by that point.

The Unite the Right rally was in August, and was set up by Jason Kessler. When a White Nationalist or Neo Nazi asks you to unite with them, literally in a rally to "Unite" with White Nationalists and KKK ... it says something about you if you accept. It says something about you when you march alongside those waving Nazi flags or chanting "The Jews will not replace us". Anyone worth a hill of beans would have left, or better yet, started counterprotesting the rally at that point. For what it's worth, most of the participants in Unite the Right rally seem to have figured this out, and declined to attend Unite the Right II also set up by Jason Kessler. Even Richard Spencer wasn't willing to associate with him at that point.

Anyone who wished to protest the removal of the statue without uniting with White Nationalists and KKK in the Unite the Right rally had ample time to have their own seperate rally where they could control the messaging. It was not, and is not, a time critical issue.

So the media showed footage of a neo-Nazi rally from May alongside Trump's comment about a protest in favor of a statue in August. That doesn't help their case. Why do you assume everyone supporting the statue attended because they liked neo-Nazis? You're doing what the media did, you're quoting the neo-Nazi chant from May to smear people protesting the statue's removal in August. There is strength in numbers, if you want to protest doing it by yourself wont be heard as loud as joining a thousand people. The one man march cant compare to the million man march - and speaking of the latter, Louis Farrakhan organized that. Do you condemn all the people who showed up?

If you supported the statue and heard a protest was this weekend you'd attend without knowing or caring who else was coming. That doesn't make you a neo-Nazi anymore than attending a free speech rally makes you a communist because commies showed up. But it would in Joe McCarthy's mind.

Specifically in regards to the claim that what I am doing is a double standard ... I would say the same about ANY group that willfully rallies with a hate group that organized the rally whether left or right or otherwise.

In regards to it being McCarthyism ... that's absurd. I am not saying there should be legal or government action against anyone involved. Only that there is a very real implication to marching beside a hate group in their rally, especially when it's LITERALLY a rally to "unite" with them.

McCarthyism employed a guilt by association you are using to smear the 'fine people' there to protest the removal of a statue, neo-Nazis were a minority of the protesters. It doesn't matter if the government was involved, the smear is the same. And I'll say it again, when Trump said there were fine people on both sides he also specifically excluded neo-Nazis and white supremacists. But the media edits that out because they cant show Trump condemning neo-Nazis when the media is claiming he said they were fine people.

[-Jrabbit]

You guys need to get a grip. Every political donor who gives $200 or more to a single politician in a year is listed in the public record by the Federal Election Commission, info that is available freely to all. This is just a bunch of hand-waving.

[Aeson]

Specifically in regards to the claim that what I am doing is a double standard ... I would say the same about ANY group that willfully rallies with a hate group that organized the rally whether left or right or otherwise.

In regards to it being McCarthyism ... that's absurd. I am not saying there should be legal or government action against anyone involved. Only that there is a very real implication to marching beside a hate group in their rally, especially when it's LITERALLY a rally to "unite" with them.

[Aeson]

Did you read the list of participants submitted to the police for the permit? I did, the majority of protesters were not neo-Nazis. They were various groups with their own causes protesting what they perceive to be a politically correct effort to remove history from the public square. If they shared the neo-Nazi's ideology they would have attended their night time tiki torch march. It doesn't matter who organized the 'unite the right' protest, he doesn't speak for all the other people who showed up to defend a statue.

In the very same press conference Trump clearly condemned the neo-Nazis and white supremacists, but the media conveniently ignores what he said about them because it conflicts with their lie that he called neo-Nazis fine people. So guess what clip the media runs with - they show the night time tiki torch march alongside Trump's 'fine people on both sides' comment about the day time protest turned brawl. Who was the other side during the tiki torch march? Antifa didn't show up to protest them, there was no other side. The guilt by association you're employing for your double standard was used against people during the red scare of the McCarthy era.

The night time tiki torch rally was earlier in the year in May, and was in large part responsible for bringing the issue to the national level. Richard Spencer (avowed White Nationalist) set that one up. There was also a KKK rally a month earlier. These rallies set the stage for the Unite the Right rally. Anyone attending had to have known who they were uniting with by that point.

The Unite the Right rally was in August, and was set up by Jason Kessler. When a White Nationalist or Neo Nazi asks you to unite with them, literally in a rally to "Unite" with White Nationalists and KKK ... it says something about you if you accept. It says something about you when you march alongside those waving Nazi flags or chanting "The Jews will not replace us". Anyone worth a hill of beans would have left, or better yet, started counterprotesting the rally at that point. For what it's worth, most of the participants in Unite the Right rally seem to have figured this out, and declined to attend Unite the Right II also set up by Jason Kessler. Even Richard Spencer wasn't willing to associate with him at that point.

Anyone who wished to protest the removal of the statue without uniting with White Nationalists and KKK in the Unite the Right rally had ample time to have their own seperate rally where they could control the messaging. It was not, and is not, a time critical issue.

[Berzerker]

I'm in favor of dark money now. The people who gave us the 1st Amendment protested anonymously to hide their identities from the King, free speech erodes when the King knows who is criticizing him. That poses a problem for me, transparency is required for boycotts. I want to know if my representative gets megabucks from corporations. Quite a dilemma.

[Berzerker]

So now a bunch of elderly retired people can worry about someone attacking them and the people with jobs can join the unemployed. Castro reminds me of the prolifers who terrorize abortion doctors by publishing their 'public information'.

[-Jrabbit]

Apparently "flippant" is the new "factual"...

[-Jrabbit]

Your outrage is hilarious and/or hypocritical, esp. considering how your Daddy Trump flip-flops from supporting white nationalists to denouncing them, then turns right around and supports them again. But his WN friends see only the support. And they certainly have no ****ing shame for defending THAT scum.

But that's not what happened here. I searched you panicky sentence, did my own research, and learned the facts. Then I shared them in a post. I know that sounds like a lot of effort to you, but it only took me about 30 seconds.

[Kidlicious]

Man, this is just some sick crap. I guess I deserve it because I knew that people like JR and giblets would be flippant about this. But I'm done.