Italy

[Wezil]

According to wiki they consistently under-perform EU *cough* levels.

It's wiki and I ain't no economist.

[Wezil]

If they are loafing around you'd think they could pop out a few more kids while they're at it.

[pchang]

How do you measure competitiveness? Overall size of the economy? How about productivity per worker? Overall size of economy has always been closely correlated with size of working population and technology level. If population is aging and shrinking, then your working population is really shrinking. If despite that, your economy is growing, then productivity per worker must be growing pretty decently.

[Wezil]

Ouch. That sounds like economics.

I barely passed a first year survey course in economics some 30 years ago....

I referred to this ("21st Century" - graph): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_Italy

[BeBMan]

FT claims everything is fine yet their economy is currently doing the best in a good long while and it is only doing...1% to 1.2% per year? If that is the "boom times" then what do "normal" or even "bad" times look like? I'd say they have major structural and competitiveness issues.

FT related to the north, which is the main poltical base of the populist Lega Nord, has a modern industrial structure and is generally considered competitive. Bureaucracy, corruption/shadow economy/organized crime etc.are significant probs in Italy, but specifically in the south, so "everything" is not fine, but these are long-standing issues, regardless of Lira or Euro.

[Dinner]

Yeah, and those would be the structural issues which I said they could deal with inside the Euro zone yet choose not to do so. Thus dealing with the Euro or more exactly leaving it and then watching the new Lira drop becomes a proxy to regain needed competitiveness without doing politically unpopular reforms.

Which is EXACTLY what I originally said and which you disagreed with. I am glad you came around to my way of think but I am wondering why you originally ever felt like disagreeing when you clearly agree with my whole point?

[BeBMan]

Try not to put words into other ppls mouths. I disagree that competitiveness is the main prob in Italy, and the FT thing supported it, whereas you so far made just vague general points. The north of Italy is where the country gets the bulk of its economic strength from, and it does not need to introduce "unpopular reforms" for this. Structural weakness in the south is an issue, yes, but it would need massive investments to change that, and as long as the eurozone as a whole is still intact a country leaving the euro may actually see less investment flowing in.

[Dinner]

Then you don't know what you are talking about or else you don't know what competitiveness means. The reason Italy's economy is stagnant even in the best of times is because it has major structural problems which it is refusing to deal with. I think it should deal with those structural problems so it's economy can grow more but Italian voters seem to think they can avoid doing that if they just leave the Euro and that would actually help them a bit. Not as much as actual reforms but it would still help.

[BeBMan]

Well, thanks for your expertise.

[Dinner]

So to paraphrase Bebro: "The Italian economy is stagnant, has been stagnant for a very long time, but it has nothing to do with competitiveness or the Euro (or more specifically the restrictions placed upon them by being in the Euro Zone!"

Seriously, listen to yourself.

[pchang]

Where are you getting your ideas about Italian competitiveness?

[Bereta_Eder]

Italy is 10 times better than the US

The only immigrants come from sicily which is very poor and makes athens look like zurich compared to NYC


having said that, Italy will not leave the euro.

There needs to be some adjastments but it will not freck up the whole euro. for the time being

[Bereta_Eder]

Junker was right in saying that trump putin and erdogan show case the need for the EU


d' accord, and every one is.

if germany (which is the locomotive) can remain humble and not lash out (which we all think it can) the project can continue

[BeBMan]

So to paraphrase Bebro: "The Italian economy is stagnant, has been stagnant for a very long time, but it has nothing to do with competitiveness or the Euro (or more specifically the restrictions placed upon them by being in the Euro Zone!"

Seriously, listen to yourself.

All you did so far is just declaring that Italy has a prob with competitiveness.


1. The basic Italian setup (strong north/weak south) is older than the eurozone. Muuuuch older, established even long before WW2. How would Italy solve the probs in the south now by leaving the euro when it was unable to do just that for ages when there was no euro, not even an EU or its post-WW2 precursor?

2. Did it occur to you that years of stagnation can happen in a country with a highly developed economy (like Germany being the "sick man" of Europe in the 1990ies), and with no euro involved, but for other reasons (like Japan's so-called lost decade)?