Who's in debt to whom?

[Lorizael]

The practical and logistical issues of a UBI are important and worth discussing, but I'm also interested in the moral argument here. One source of unease people have about, say, the idea that we all live in a simulation is that it means we are trapped in a world created by others and forced to play by their rules until... whenever. But honestly, in a particular mood, this is just what real life feels like to me. There's a universe of infinite diversity and complexity out there, but we're born into a nearly inescapable system that demands we live our lives (based on technology, culture, politics, etc.) in a very particular way. If we don't or can't... well... that's too bad for us.

[Meticulous Man]

And would that include health benefits also?

using the public healthcare system costs a few dozen euros every now and then

TAXES R HIGHER THEN IN US

[Meticulous Man]

There's a universe of infinite diversity and complexity out there, but we're born into a nearly inescapable system that demands we live our lives (based on technology, culture, politics, etc.) in a very particular way. If we don't or can't... well... that's too bad for us.

QFT

[rah]

using the public healthcare system costs a few dozen euros every now and then

For the young and healthy maybe but for an aging population, not so.

[Meticulous Man]

Ok i cant speak from personal experience bout that

[Elok]

The practical and logistical issues of a UBI are important and worth discussing, but I'm also interested in the moral argument here. One source of unease people have about, say, the idea that we all live in a simulation is that it means we are trapped in a world created by others and forced to play by their rules until... whenever. But honestly, in a particular mood, this is just what real life feels like to me. There's a universe of infinite diversity and complexity out there, but we're born into a nearly inescapable system that demands we live our lives (based on technology, culture, politics, etc.) in a very particular way. If we don't or can't... well... that's too bad for us.

Well, I'm beginning from radically different priors here, and quite happy with the idea of constraints. I also have some sympathy for distributism, though I don't know how to implement it in the modern era. I suppose my main moral objection to the UBI is that it could create a fundamentally unhealthy relationship of dependency on the state for subsistence. For a democracy to be healthy, as many people as possible should be self-sufficient. Creating a caste of modern-day thetes, with no job skills and no means of supporting themselves not given on sufferance, would not be improving. I don't mean in the sense of "they'll develop bad character and become lazy and demand handouts all the time," but in the sense that they would be continually vulnerable to the whims of their betters, as no previous class of people has ever been before to my knowledge. That's not a good way for people to live; it's unrealistic for people with no responsibilities to expect power. If the new post-automation economy requires us to reduce most of the population to total economic dependency, perhaps that's a sign we need to change directions. I don't know how.

[Aeson]

I don’t think the financial cost is that important. UBI isn’t a money pit, it increases the amount of goods and services consumed, thus produced, thus earned/taxed. It’s better than a tax cut for the rich, because rich people are rich because they are not consuming all their wealth already. Thus making them wealthier is unlikely to result in increased consumption.

Capitalism is great at providing goods and services to those who want them and can pay for them ... it’s great at scaling production up to meet increased demand ... it’s terrible at doing so for those who can’t pay for them.

The problem with UBI is it wastes the incentive to be productive that the same money could have provided, and undermines work ethic. It’s better than letting people waste away in poverty, but is not as good as giving them an opportunity to be productive. It’s not even as good as paying for make-work, though there are plenty of real work that needs to be done.

Best would be to guarantee full employment, with a safety net for those who can’t work.

[Meticulous Man]

For a democracy to be healthy, as many people as possible should be self-sufficient.

?

Creating a caste of modern-day thetes, with no job skills and no means of supporting themselves not given on sufferance, would not be improving. I don't mean in the sense of "they'll develop bad character and become lazy and demand handouts all the time," but in the sense that they would be continually vulnerable to the whims of their betters, as no previous class of people has ever been before to my knowledge.

what bout someone under threat of losing theyre job?

The problem with UBI is it wastes the incentive to be productive that the same money could have provided

It’s better than letting people waste away in poverty, but is not as good as giving them an opportunity to be productive

?

[Aeson]

??

[Meticulous Man]

i didnt quite get it

[Aeson]

If you have $1t and give it away to unemployed people, less gets done than if you pay the unemployed people $1t to do things.

Plus by giving it away you create dependency rather than self esteem and work ethic, and they will appreciate it less. Much better to pay them to plant trees or something.

[rah]

I agree 100% There is no feeling of self worth if you just accept cash. It's bad enough for people that are incapable.

[Meticulous Man]

but "less gets done" from the point of view of whom?

its hard to see how someone develops better self esteem from being bossed around

[rah]

I make a lot of money and I get bossed around all the time. I still take a lot of self respect out of what I do. Most people are bossed around,

[Aeson]

but "less gets done" from the point of view of whom?

In my POV, but as far as they are being paid to produce something of value, it is also true in an absolute economic sense.

its hard to see how someone develops better self esteem from being bossed around

Everyone is bossed around in many ways. Whether other people, governments, or the laws of physics, all of us have to bow to some authority.

Self esteem comes from feeling you are valuable, and being valuable (providing value) is the best way to achieve that.