Who's in debt to whom?

[ricketyclik]

Who's in debt to whom?

It's not a question of debt, it's a question of rights and corresponding obligations. We all have a right to a life with our basic needs met, and we all have an obligation to contribute to the group in a way that assists in achieving those needs for ourselves and others.

I think it's called the social compact, but I can't be arsed looking it up.

[Lorizael]

It's not a question of debt, it's a question of rights and corresponding obligations.

And from whence do these rights and obligations come?

[rah]

The only obligation is that of the rich to keep the poor distracted enough not to pull out the torches and pitchforks and attack the castle. The goal is to do it at the least possible cost.

This can be accomplished by caring for their welfare, or ruling with an iron fist.

Anyone that thinks there's an altruistic right, is just fooling themselves.

[Jon Miller]

There is one narrative that goes like this:

For most of the last two melinium, a handful of men who trained with weapons, had horses and metal armor (all requiring wealth) could rule almost absolutely.

Then, in particular, came the invention of the firearm. With guns, a barely peasent could be the match for a well trained knight. As guns became cheaper, power went to the people.

In the future, robots will be more than a match for an armed person. Why will those with wealth need the masses at all? Either for labor or for military force? How will he masses be able to 'storm the basilica'?

JM

[Lorizael]

I think the only long-term solution is powerful technology so dirt cheap that either (a) no one can be prevented from getting what they need to live a decent life or (b) literally everyone is doing MAD with everyone else.

[pchang]

I think the first is more likely. We are still bound by the conservation of mass+energy. Thus, small transformations to make stuff useful (giving everyone a decent life) is a lot cheaper than generating and expending huge amounts of energy (MAD).

[Lorizael]

Right, but people suck.

[pchang]

While people suck, they still can't disregard the laws of physics. It's why flying cars will never be more than a luxury novelty item. The energy requirements are just too prohibitive.

[Proteus_MST]

...
Then, in particular, came the invention of the firearm. With guns, a barely peasent could be the match for a well trained knight. As guns became cheaper, power went to the people.

...

That actually came even before guns ...
Crossbows already gave peasants without much training the power to kill armored knights.

Which is, why a pope (under threat of excommunication) even forbade the use of crossbows against catholics (and only allowed them against "unbelievers" )

[Elok]

Honestly, the heyday of the mounted knight was pretty brief and somewhat exaggerated. Trained and decently equipped infantry could stand up to cavalry quite well. They didn't even need pikes--though they helped--just common spears and enough discipline not to scatter. If they scattered, they were screwed, and the much faster knight had fun riding them down. That's the point of cavalry, it's maneuverable and has shock power. If they held firm, on the other hand, they had superior concentration of force, and horses were seldom stupid enough to run headfirst into a wall of spikes. Now, some European powers happened to have superb melee cavalry and rather crappy infantry, but this was for cultural reasons, not because guys on horses with armor were supermen. Mounted archers or longbowmen could both shoot knights to bits, and Turkics and Englishmen respectively used them well, while others did not, because they preferred to give their ruling class expensive toys and deny everyone else the means to resist them.

[Aeson]

The Black Death also helped. However there was some collateral damage.

[ricketyclik]

And from whence do these rights and obligations come?

From the social compact.

I notice it's the Americans who have difficulty with this, and who have the idea that "people suck".

That's why you can't have good things the rest of us enjoy, like universal health care.

[Lorizael]

The social compact is not a thing out there in the world. If you'd like to organize a society around that concept, go right ahead, but don't pretend it's anything more than playing Cowboys and Indians on a grand scale.

[ricketyclik]

The social compact is not a thing out there in the world. If you'd like to organize a society around that concept, go right ahead, but don't pretend it's anything more than playing Cowboys and Indians on a grand scale.

USA! USA! USA!

[ricketyclik]

Most civilised societies in the world are organised around the concept. You guys are so indoctrinated by the model of freedom of the individual (to exploit other individuals) by your exploiters that you can't see it.