"Open Immigration Is Good for the Economy"--article by myself

[Kidlicious]

So your answer is there is no difference to the actual law?

They don't enforce the law. They want more illegals and less Dinners. The sad truth is an illegal can just walk up and shoot Dinner in the light of day and he can just say it was an accident.

[rah]

So you're admitting that the law is the same.

[Broken_Erika]

They don't enforce the law. They want more illegals and less Dinners. The sad truth is an illegal can just walk up and shoot Dinner in the light of day and he can just say it was an accident.

Maybe the Illegal is hungry.
Besides, Firearms and Meals have a special relationship!

[Proteus_MST]

They don't enforce the law. They want more illegals and less Dinners. The sad truth is an illegal can just walk up and shoot Dinner in the light of day and he can just say it was an accident.

Likewise can a legal citizen ... and even more easily can a cop do so (after all a cop in the US just hs to claim that he felt threatened by the person he shot/killed)

[ricketyclik]

Nice article Zev.

[ricketyclik]

It's kind of ironic that the prejudice levelled against immigrants makes it more likely that they'll be poor/ostracised/disenfranchised and therefore more likely to commit anti social acts in retaliation, making it a self fulfilling prophecy. But I think that isn't quite right, it's more a case of cognitive dissonance - a person daring to change countries is a brave and resourceful one, and more likely to make a positive contribution. But when one hears of a bad act, and asks "were they an immigrant?" then every yes answer reinforces the prejudice, and every no answer is seen as an exception.

[Kidlicious]

It takes a lot more guts to stay in a third world **** hole.

[ricketyclik]

Not from what I've seen. Generally people stick with what they know, and where they know. Making a leap into the unknown, leaving your friends and family behind, that takes courage.

[Kidlicious]

It also takes courage to stay in your own country. Of course a lot of these countries want their people to leave. So it takes more courage to stay when your own government wants you to go.

[rah]

I think you're mistaking courage for stupidity here. But then, not surprising for you.

[Kidlicious]

It takes courage to break into people's house too. That's also what liberals do.

[rah]

More Kidiot nonsense noise. Feel free to post any substantiation for that claim so we can actually discuss it.

[Zevico]

Hi Zevico!

Thanks for coming back for a visit and sharing your article. Very good article.

Yes I'm a national conservative (American variety) now. I used to be open borders advocate, as you mentioned. I think 9-11 might have been the turning point for me although I didn't start identifying as conservative for seven more years. I was a teacher then, in 2001, in an inner city school. I remember that flags very popular for a short time. People put them on their car. I wore a flag shirt one day to work. This was maybe a week after 9-11. Some students threw rocks at me from behind me. None hit me, but I stopped displaying the flag because I realized that the students (many of whom either immigrated to the US illegally or were second generation, didn't like the flag, and didn't even have sympathy for people who did shortly after the worst terrorist attack ever against Americans.

Now you should know that the school I taught at is a failing school. It didn't used to be. It used to be successful before the demographics of the area changed, that is before so many illegal immigrants moved into the community.

Never the less I was still a leftist for seven more years after this experience, but I was a very disturbed leftist with a lot of anxiety over my beliefs. After all, how was I to believe that these students would one day become productive citizens. The fact is that they mostly ended up in prison, on welfare or shot dead by a gang member.

But maybe you Aussies have a different experience. I know that your economy is doing very well. However, one point I will make is that it is not fuelled by immigration. It is fuelled by demand for raw materials from China, who's own growth is fuelled by demand for finished goods from the United States among other places. This has all happened because our open borders advocates here in the US have opened our markets to China and our capitalists have poured resources into that country and eliminated many jobs. Many communities in the U.S. have been destroyed, which does not happen without political consequences. Your well reasoned argument falls on deaf ears to the people who are harmed by open borders policies. You can't make a rational argument and expect people to be irrational to believe it.

So the argument isn't over whether open borders creates growth or not. It does create a bit of growth over all (but not much), but whether or not it creates growth for your particular country or community.

The other point of contention I have with your argument is your claim that we are going to get doctors, entrepreneurs and scientists with an open borders policy. Obviously, to a person with my experience this is ridiculous. They aren't coming over like that (with a few exceptions) and our schools aren't teaching them to be like that. And the important point is that our schools are broken in large part because of illegal immigration. So a few examples of great immigrant citizens does not make up for the masses that do not contribute to society. You have to take the group as a whole. They have to bring an equal portion of doctors with them or the country will suffer shortages and prices will rise.

I look forward to your response.

thanks! You've made a lot of interesting points here.

Firstly I think it's necessary to understand that the experience you had in your school, while awful and insensitive, cannot be taken to represent a whole body of immigrants. The people you met at an inner city school represent one bad experience. Ask yourself whether you've had any positive experiences as well.

Remember also that the flag is pretty divisive--it can symbolise repression as much as it can symbolise liberty. I'm not telling you the kids were right to throw rocks at you, they weren't. But I am saying it takes some understanding of how politics and politicians tear people apart, divide them into warring camps, and forget their common humanity. After all those kids weren't throwing rocks at you before you wore that shirt. They had no problem with an American teacher, they had an issue with the flag and what it represented. I'm guessing that for them it represented some awful experiences in their lives or their family's lives.

Your comments about your school are interesting as well. Inner city schools have struggled because of demographic changes for some time now, but let me ask you to consider the other side of the equation.

Part of the issue is that public schools struggle to teach kids how to learn. Well educated parents who teach their kids how to learn can ensure their kids succeed in the system, but everyone else tends to struggle.

Perhaps you know of the school choice movement, which is based on the idea that teachers need to be rewarded for good teaching. John Stossel, an American journalist, summarised the movement and spoke of a particular inner school teacher, Jaime Escalante, who did great things with his kids. Unfortunately he was punished for his efforts by the local school because it seemingly made all the others look bad. This culture of punishing success means that schools will struggle to teach kids with the best methods that reach even the seemingly impossible students. Teaching is often about finding the right method to suit the kids in question, and unfortunately that's not encouraged.

Here's a link if you're interested about Jaime Escalante (go to about the 2-3 minute mark). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VObBmEBSTXU

Also I want to note your comment that they "mostly ended up in prison, welfare or shot dead by a gang member." If that's really the case it's terrible news, but firstly, how sure are you of this? Mostly is a very strong word after all. I think that in the US a lot of kids have a chance of getting somewhere regardless of origin and a lot do, like the kids taught by Escalante who went on to be incredibly successful.

Secondly, the problems you've identified are again ones that can be put down to other factors. For example, the US criminal justice system is grossly overpopulated because of onerous sentencing laws and drug prohibition that drives crime and gang warfare. These issues are a major part of the Black Lives Matter movement for instance—they affect a lot of people whether they are citizens or not. These problems needs to be addressed.

I guess another value I have that affects my thinking is the presumption of innocence. We shouldn’t punish people for crimes committed by other people; people need to be judged on their own merits. Punish the criminals, sure, but leave the innocent out of it. Restrictions on migration harm people who haven’t done anything wrong and may never do anything wrong, indeed who may help a lot of people. They don’t deserve that.
Anyway, I'll deal with the rest later.

[-Jrabbit]

Ah, a calm, reasoned voice providing an organized, logical response to Kidicious. This should be good...

[Kidlicious]

thanks! You've made a lot of interesting points here.

Firstly I think it's necessary to understand that the experience you had in your school, while awful and insensitive, cannot be taken to represent a whole body of immigrants. The people you met at an inner city school represent one bad experience. Ask yourself whether you've had any positive experiences as well.

As I have already said, there are good immigrants, but these are mostly illegal immigrants or the children of illegal immigrants. Yes, there is variation, but I'm giving you the overall effect of allowing so many to stay in my country. Of course not all of them threw rocks at me because of the flag. But you should not ignore the fact that some did, as you have done. You have to consider the negative effects on our society.

Remember also that the flag is pretty divisive--it can symbolise repression as much as it can symbolise liberty. I'm not telling you the kids were right to throw rocks at you, they weren't. But I am saying it takes some understanding of how politics and politicians tear people apart, divide them into warring camps, and forget their common humanity. After all those kids weren't throwing rocks at you before you wore that shirt. They had no problem with an American teacher, they had an issue with the flag and what it represented. I'm guessing that for them it represented some awful experiences in their lives or their family's lives.

Anyone who doesn't like the flag doesn't like America and shouldn't come here or stay here. The flag is not divisive, they are. They need to leave. They are harming everyone by dividing the country. We need to teach kids that America is good, and everyone needs to be united, not divided. There should be no tolerance for immigrants who don't share that belief.

Your comments about your school are interesting as well. Inner city schools have struggled because of demographic changes for some time now, but let me ask you to consider the other side of the equation.

Part of the issue is that public schools struggle to teach kids how to learn. Well educated parents who teach their kids how to learn can ensure their kids succeed in the system, but everyone else tends to struggle.

You're not considering the fact that the schools functioned very well before the demographics change.

Perhaps you know of the school choice movement, which is based on the idea that teachers need to be rewarded for good teaching. John Stossel, an American journalist, summarised the movement and spoke of a particular inner school teacher, Jaime Escalante, who did great things with his kids. Unfortunately he was punished for his efforts by the local school because it seemingly made all the others look bad. This culture of punishing success means that schools will struggle to teach kids with the best methods that reach even the seemingly impossible students. Teaching is often about finding the right method to suit the kids in question, and unfortunately that's not encouraged.

Here's a link if you're interested about Jaime Escalante (go to about the 2-3 minute mark). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VObBmEBSTXU

I'm in favor of school choice, but the teacher's union isn't. They fight extremely hard against it.

That said, I don't think school choice will solve the problem. Immigrants are not likely to care about which school their children go to.

Also I want to note your comment that they "mostly ended up in prison, welfare or shot dead by a gang member." If that's really the case it's terrible news, but firstly, how sure are you of this? Mostly is a very strong word after all. I think that in the US a lot of kids have a chance of getting somewhere regardless of origin and a lot do, like the kids taught by Escalante who went on to be incredibly successful.

This is a fact. The schools are failing. This is what is happening to children.

Secondly, the problems you've identified are again ones that can be put down to other factors. For example, the US criminal justice system is grossly overpopulated because of onerous sentencing laws and drug prohibition that drives crime and gang warfare. These issues are a major part of the Black Lives Matter movement for instance—they affect a lot of people whether they are citizens or not. These problems needs to be addressed.

Our police and criminal justice system are a benefit to inner cities. They reduce crime which improves those neighborhoods. Don't listen to BLM. That is communist propaganda. The left is responsible for the poor condition of the inner cities, not police or the criminal justice system.

That said, you still have the problem of criminals illegally migrating to the US and being allowed to stay, making the problem worse. It takes resources away from schools and from police.

I guess another value I have that affects my thinking is the presumption of innocence. We shouldn’t punish people for crimes committed by other people; people need to be judged on their own merits. Punish the criminals, sure, but leave the innocent out of it. Restrictions on migration harm people who haven’t done anything wrong and may never do anything wrong, indeed who may help a lot of people. They don’t deserve that.
Anyway, I'll deal with the rest later.

The citizens of my country are innocent. They deserve good schools and responsible government. They don't deserve to be forced to take responsibility for other people who do not share their values, or who wish them harm.

[Proteus_MST]

As I have already said, there are good immigrants, but these are mostly illegal immigrants or the children of illegal immigrants. ...

So, no muslims (refugees or otherwise) who come legally to the USA (under the immigration policies of the Obama era)

You're not considering the fact that the schools functioned very well before the demographics change.

Till when did the schols function well (year)?
And what demographics change?

That said, you still have the problem of criminals illegally migrating to the US and being allowed to stay, making the problem worse. It takes resources away from schools and from police.
...

Which is no problem that can be handled via things like the muslim ban, Trump would love to implement.
After all this effects only people who would (without the ban) come legally into the USA