The Moral Arc

[Elok]

In all fairness, I am somewhat hostile to gay rights, not because I think they're out to destroy heterosexual civilization or anything but b/c I think they're essentially blunt implements for progressives to whack theocons with. I think a lot of my anger at the hysteria comes from their blindness both to the equivalent (and about equally legitimate) panic they inspired on the other side and to the fact that they're being used and thus are scarcely less endangered by their own party than by the enemy's. The country is stuck between two bands of horrible people, and I'm being gradually forced over to the slightly more horrible of the two for the sake of self-preservation, and it does make me rather grumpy.

[DaShi]

Who is threatening you?

[Lorizael]

In all fairness, I am somewhat hostile to gay rights, not because I think they're out to destroy heterosexual civilization or anything but b/c I think they're essentially blunt implements for progressives to whack theocons with. I think a lot of my anger at the hysteria comes from their blindness both to the equivalent (and about equally legitimate) panic they inspired on the other side and to the fact that they're being used and thus are scarcely less endangered by their own party than by the enemy's. The country is stuck between two bands of horrible people, and I'm being gradually forced over to the slightly more horrible of the two for the sake of self-preservation, and it does make me rather grumpy.

As my real beliefs are wacky, I've long had about 3 or 4 different opinions on any particular topic, depending on whether I'm speaking from the perspective of my ideal utopia, or the actions necessary to get the US to that utopia, or what is best for the citizens of the US, or how my ideal utopia could be translated into a US context, etc. But I've come to the conclusion recently that that was probably a misguided effort on my part, maintained mostly because I was born in the US and I'm a citizen and I can't help but care about this place.

Well, **** that, I say. I have wacky beliefs, and wacky they shall remain. The US is just some place. This transition of mine means I'm no longer attempting to shoehorn what I believe into American politics. What I think and what Americans think can be dramatically orthogonal to each other. So, you know, you're all weird, irrational ****ers to me. But that's because you're all coming at this from an entirely different perspective than I am. And I can't really judge that.

You're just a mildly weird Orthodox Christian, not some dippy transhumanist who sometimes thinks maybe the Borg have it right, but I think my perspective might serve you well. If you have wacky beliefs, translating them into on the ground political tactics and strategy for the very specific context of 21st century America is going to get you results that don't line up well with what anyone else thinks. Instead of concluding that this means everyone else is doing it wrong, just shrug and realize that you can only focus on doing your own thing.

[Elok]

I have a very hard time picturing your transhumanism getting you in trouble, except in some impossibly far-fetched scenario wherein you somehow get involved in the vanguard of some eugenic experiment to produce an organic hivemind which goes horribly wrong, and even then I'd picture you as the Albert Speer (Nazi, not Polytubby) of the group. And that would be somewhat incidental to the main political conflict of our time. Christianity is not and cannot be extrinsic to the story. One side are scheming goblins who will not suffer us to live with any manner of integrity, while the other are straight-up orcs but will leave us alone if we don't rock the boat. Which is horrible, because they're even worse than the goblins in many respects, but there you are.

[Bereta_Eder]

Bypassing the gay thing nd christianity, well about the latter having witnessed first eye the transition of the roman empire from the dodecatheon to christianity I can safely say, anyone who reads the scriptures is wrong. Everyone is wrong.

It took centuries for that transition to make it happen. After constantine moved the capital to constantinople in 300AD and christianity took whold letting the western part crumble to dust, it becomes apparent.

The transition slowly evolved. Ancient agoras were transformed and they became the christian temples. Around 400AD the sign of the cross was adopted to symbolize the victory upon death and the ultimate sacrifice. The cross in byzantium in 400AD becamse the symbol of christianity.


Now apart from that I think we are going to have a hell of a funny time with trump sparkling commericaal wars because he didn't know he would.

It's very entertaining to have that persona on the world stage to provide entertainment.

I basically think only good things will come out of it.

That he rtusts merkel as much as putin is one

[Bereta_Eder]

And jews were hated for aeons. It isn't going away.

Again, in the history of that city go back 1000 years. the spanish inquisition chased them to death. They found refure there.

Then 1000 years later germans killed them from there too.


It's amazing in a bad way.

the jewish musem had lots of info on the jewish religion. I thought it was a primitive backwards ****ed up cult that can't compare to the greek religion or to christianity.


however that doesn't mean they should get treated the way they were. that's unacceptable.

I guess germans are very very weird.


THe feeling you get when you exit the museum is: why does germany still exist and when's the bomb coming down at them?

[Bereta_Eder]

They made the jews come down to the central plaza (what a history that plaza had. the young turks nationalistic fascist revolution started from there too, then the city was liberated by the greeks in the second balkan war)

they started humiliating them and throw water at them and beat them. that's bascially one third of the city. then they took them on trains and sent them to awsvitch or some other center (forget the name). This you must oppose not only beecause they are germans (now they are cuttie pies, right) but because it is against human decency.

SUch attrocities were committed against the christian greeks too. and there were lots of greek jewish soldiers in the army and as officers.


I went to that big room. The names of tens of thousands of jewish people on the walls. hell I knew one of them (the last name I mean)

That brought to my mind another large room with all the christian greeks executed from a village because they resisted.

there is no difference apart from one: the first were executed because of who they were, the second because of what they did

[Bereta_Eder]

One thing that also made an impression was how a jewish woman was spared (from wearing the star and boarding the train) because she had married an greek of aryan race.
(that's how it was written in the german document)

it would seem those huns vandals and goth villagers sleeping on their ow exrement somehow had deluded themselves in thinking they had abything in common with the most amazing race planet earth ever produced.


thank god russians saved the planet and greeks decided the outcome of ww2 through their resistance.


or such ideas would have become prevalent

[ZEE]

I just wanted to say hi to Paiktis and have no idea what this thrade is about. I'm a goddamn Cherubim, I can get away with anything. Might even make a new AAHZ-Thrade™ if I will stop drinking enough to do so.

Kill haters, fucc hoes, praise God.

AAHZ, ******s.

[Aeson]

It was many people's who fought and died to stop fascism. To try to make it about only one or two groups and pretend the others were secretly Nazis is absurd. It is in fact falling into the same hyper exclusuvity trap.

There were even lots of Germans even who risked their lives and many who gave theirs to give aid or shelter ... or even directly fight back against the Nazis.

The Nazis viewed themselves as superior ... denying the value of the rest of humanity. And what are you doing if not the same thing? You hold Greeks and Russians as heroes (rightly so), but then deride those who made the same heroic sacrifices as deficient or even secretly Nazis themselves.

[Aeson]

Well, yes and no. It's entirely legit to worry about Trump, but not for such a trivial reason. It's like if you saw your neighbor moving a dozen automatic rifles into his house, along with several large crates marked "5.65 mm" and a pallet-load of fertilizer. But you do not notice him carrying in a gun safe large enough to safely store so many firearms, and therefore worry that your neighbor's kid will get hold of one of the weapons and hurt himself. While this is a perfectly legitimate concern, you're kind of missing the point.

You are supposing that Trump will play politics-as-usual in a time of severe political dysfunction, and moreover that Trump will play PAU effectively for an extended period of time. This is possible, but not in keeping with what we know of his character and talents. He has shown a remarkable knack for bypassing rules, provoking strong emotional reactions and lying without shame. These are very valuable skills for raising hell, but not for actually running a country which was already starkly divided before he arrived on the scene. A more reasonable scenario to worry about would be one wherein Trump is caught doing something blatantly, egregiously corrupt, and tries to deflect blame by oafishly speculating that "inner-city blacks did it." He then doubles down and fans the flames to provoke mass riots, and uses said riots as an excuse for political repression. Which would in turn bring about a still more radicalized response, because he doesn't have enough public support to be effectively repressive but he's too short-sighted and self-absorbed to appreciate that. I could totally see Trump doing that, couldn't you?

With that scenario in mind, I find it hard not to be annoyed with these people and their protest marches.

It's not trivial. You refuse to even try to understand it, likely because of your admitted opposition to homosexual rights. But if your own marriage was in the same exact level of jeopardy, you are either lying to yourself or just don't value your marriage if you say you wouldn't be concerned.

You are demonstrably and admittedly worried about things that are far more trivial. This thread is itself an example. People on Facebook posted stuff that you don't agree with. This extraordinary event that can only have an effect on your life to the extent you pay attention to it or care has lead you to post pages of arguments as to why they are concerned with "trivial" things like having their marriages revoked or adoption rights taken away. We should focus on much more important issues like why everyone on Facebook doesn't agree with Elok!

You are worried about Trump doing something he might do, but hasn't specified he plans to do. They are worried he will do what he's said he will do ... pack the court with Scalia types. If he gets 2 of the 3 possibles they don't even need Roberts, who authored the dissent on Obergfell, to do away with homosexual marriage and adoption. They could even uphold a new DOMA type bill that does away with homosexual marriage in non-bigoted states. And with Rs in both houses the only thing that could stop that is Trump vetoing his own party. Even on the off chance he does, Rs could sneak a lot of similar stuff into bills Trump will just rubber stamp without bothering to even read. We have plenty of examples about how Rs like to try to circumvent constitutional rights issues already. Imagine how much bolder they can be with a majority on SCOTUS.

[Aeson]

As for PAU I have assumed no such thing. Trump has said Scalia is his model justice. Once the seat is filled Trump has no say. He might not agree with a ruling against homosexual rights, but it's not his jurisdiction. Neither are state laws his jurisdiction, and even new federal laws he only has limited input on.

In regard to the last item, PAU would actually be a small solace, as Trump's support for LGBT might be counted on helping to stop new anti-LGBT legislation ... except Trump is so irrational and unprofessional that he can't be counted on to even do what he thinks is right. (If indeed he does make such assessment.) He could forgo the veto just to screw some celebrity who cares about it ... because they are in a Twitter war.

[Aeson]

"Meryl Streep. Horrible. Just awful. Your lies have made the LGBT interment camp walls 10 feet taller. Sad."

[Kidlicious]

In all fairness, I am somewhat hostile to gay rights, not because I think they're out to destroy heterosexual civilization or anything but b/c I think they're essentially blunt implements for progressives to whack theocons with. I think a lot of my anger at the hysteria comes from their blindness both to the equivalent (and about equally legitimate) panic they inspired on the other side and to the fact that they're being used and thus are scarcely less endangered by their own party than by the enemy's. The country is stuck between two bands of horrible people, and I'm being gradually forced over to the slightly more horrible of the two for the sake of self-preservation, and it does make me rather grumpy.

I don't understand your reasoning. Why are you hostile towards gay rights, and not towards "progressives?"

[Aeson]

A better question is why would you abandon what is right, or align yourself with what is worse (in your own estimation)?