The Moral Arc

[Aeson]

If heterosexual marriage were banned it would be an sign of the impending collapse of civilization as we know it, because marriage (or something very closely analogous) is essential to provide a stable environment for childrearing. Homosexual marriage bans would mean the employment of lawyers to circumvent most of the restrictions--they couldn't do anything about joint filing, the rest seems feasible enough--and some relocation, but probably not as much as we think. Gay marriage hasn't been legal in, say, Kentucky for very long at all. It would not be a pleasant situation by a long shot, but far from apocalyptic, especially compared to the utter misery Trump could plausibly inflict on other minorities. Even the end of abortion rights (which I'm totally fine with) would cause substantially more social disruption.

I very much doubt it would come to physically taking children away from homosexual parents, unless (again) it progressed to a true civil-war stage such that everybody would be screwed.

You're missing or dodging the point of the question. I'm not asking you about the overarching societal implications of the hypothetical. We all know how favored white Christians are in the US and that it can't happen without the whole system being overthrown.

[Elok]

The point, as I see it, is that Trump poses a far larger threat to society as a whole (including gays) than he does to gays specifically. I find it more plausible that he will ignore, and be allowed to ignore, the Constitution entirely to suit his own purposes than that he will play the game of conventional politics long and well enough to push back twenty-plus years of legal changes on behalf of some people riding on his campaign's ***** seat. He's about as bad at conventional politics as he is good at being disruptive, and at getting away with antisocial behavior.

[Aeson]

That there are more, and even better, reasons to worry about Trump only makes it even more reasonable that your Facebook friends are worried about his Presidency.

[Kidlicious]

Obama just released a traitor from prison because transgender.

[Sava]

So, I have once again made the fatuous mistake of trying to converse with hardcore progressives on FB. I honestly tried to be open and fair, which was stupid but seemed to begin well. I probably shouldn't have even touched a thread where an old college friend of mine, who is a very nice and very progressive person, asked people to talk about their feelings now that Trump was about to take over and start hunting lesbians for sport. There was a great deal of feeling unsafe and crying about lost futures and WHY DOES EVERYONE HATE US, and let's just say it went slowly downhill until I got chastised for insensitivity and had the sense to bow out before I got compared to Hitler.

I'm still not totally clear about why people are still acting this catatonically upset two months on. If I am to take these claims at face value, they are feeling and acting about how I would six months after my mother died in a horrible wreck. If Hillary had won, the hardcore conservatives would be forming militias, stockpiling ammo, and doing other demented but arguably sorta constructive things. Their general mentality would be "**** THAT WORTHLESS WHORE WE'LL SHOW HER." These folks are, well, hugging their teddies in the safe space. Why?

The simplest, but most mean-spirited explanation is that this is a manifestation of what the Atlantic last year summed up as "victim culture," wherein Young People These Days compete to be the most oppressed and therefore most entitled to attention and vengeance from an external source of authority or validation, yadda yadda. In other words, it's a kind of play-act. But that would require me to believe that it's all basically insincere. So I'm going to proceed on the assumption that this is sincere, but that these people are not the utter ninnies that would seem to imply.

My most promising theory is that these folks really believe in something like MLK's "moral arc of the universe," wherein it's somehow natural for things to continually get better a little bit at a time, with some minor backsliding to be expected. Hillary was a sequel to Obama, a pinnacle of the Fezzian moral vision where the first woman president succeeds the first black president and rights for everyone get all the way better--basically, they're approaching the liberal-prog singularity. Past the curve in the hockey stick. But then, somehow, a parody of Republicanism so grotesque that even Republicans don't like him swoops in and steals her place. They're upset about their jeopardized gay marriages and abortions and Hamilton performances and stuff, but more than that, they're upset because this upsets their understanding of how the story is supposed to go. The universe is all wrong now. The math isn't adding up anymore. They feel like I feel when human beings do the right thing without profit motive, but much more so. They've attempted to make it right by inventing horse**** about Russian "hacking" or trying to subvert the Electoral College (or just blaming it, like a three million margin on the gilded turd is something to be proud of). I thought it was about Trump himself, but I wonder if it's more like disappointed believers redoing their math from Revelation so the end of the world prediction might not be a total fizzle after all.

Your thoughts? Also, for extra credit, is there an interpretation of the whole "privilege" concept that is not essentially about constructing an inverted status hierarchy and forcing the less crippled *****es to know their place when the big kids are talking?

Came here to see a JM meltdown. But I'll start here first.

If you are being true right now and really can't understand why people would be upset at losing health care coverage that means the difference between a few dozen bucks being spent or tens of thousands... then I think you are just mentally retarded more than anything. Moreso than you are evil. But dumb and evil aren't mutually exclusive either.

You are a straight up psycho with an inability to empathize with other people. The serious retardation of your belief system is rivaled only by the extreme malice you hold in your heart for your fellow humans.

You are a piece of trash and ought to... minimize your impact on humanity to the most extreme level possible. Interpret that how you will.

Go **** yourself.

It's a privilege every day a police officer doesn't roll up on you and shoot you dead... or that it doesn't happen to your child... or your nephew... or any person that would have to be related to you enough to care... if you even possess that ability.

My only regret is that I probably won't ever get the opportunity to scream this in your pathetic face.

[Sava]

So yes, I am happy to forget equal rights. I don't hold 'equal rights' as sacred, rather as a first order optimum.

JM

Jesus ****ing Christ.

You are an abject moral failure.

[Jon Miller]

Yes.

I favor increased African American rights at the cost of the rights of other groups in order to protect a group which has been under continual and sustained attack throughout US history.

'Hate crime' is an example of 'forgetting equal rights' in order to add protections.

JM

[Sava]

But, as a self identified Christian (a fake one at that), you're in good company. The Catholic church... one big giant child rape factory. Hillbilly American fundamentalist dip****s.

There's no shortage of deranged, retarded lunatics in this world.

[Elok]

That there are more, and even better, reasons to worry about Trump only makes it even more reasonable that your Facebook friends are worried about his Presidency.

Well, yes and no. It's entirely legit to worry about Trump, but not for such a trivial reason. It's like if you saw your neighbor moving a dozen automatic rifles into his house, along with several large crates marked "5.65 mm" and a pallet-load of fertilizer. But you do not notice him carrying in a gun safe large enough to safely store so many firearms, and therefore worry that your neighbor's kid will get hold of one of the weapons and hurt himself. While this is a perfectly legitimate concern, you're kind of missing the point.

You are supposing that Trump will play politics-as-usual in a time of severe political dysfunction, and moreover that Trump will play PAU effectively for an extended period of time. This is possible, but not in keeping with what we know of his character and talents. He has shown a remarkable knack for bypassing rules, provoking strong emotional reactions and lying without shame. These are very valuable skills for raising hell, but not for actually running a country which was already starkly divided before he arrived on the scene. A more reasonable scenario to worry about would be one wherein Trump is caught doing something blatantly, egregiously corrupt, and tries to deflect blame by oafishly speculating that "inner-city blacks did it." He then doubles down and fans the flames to provoke mass riots, and uses said riots as an excuse for political repression. Which would in turn bring about a still more radicalized response, because he doesn't have enough public support to be effectively repressive but he's too short-sighted and self-absorbed to appreciate that. I could totally see Trump doing that, couldn't you?

With that scenario in mind, I find it hard not to be annoyed with these people and their protest marches.

[Sava]

On a personal note, I'm frustrated and upset that I'm unable to be a part of this community anymore. One of Poly's greatest strengths is that it is an open forum where any multitude of ideas can be discussed.

I feel disappointed that I've come to the conclusion that some ideas are just so toxic that they pervert the individuals who believe or espouse them.

There are a lot of wonderful people here. I regret that I get so upset at the bull**** that I can't do anything but say what I say the way I say it.

The only thing I seem able to say is that if I haven't spent a great deal of time spewing my spew at you, then you're a decent person who says and believes decent things.

The rest of you? I wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire. Life is too short to waste it with humans of such low quality.

Choke and die on your own excrement.












but really though... PLEASE DO

[Jon Miller]

I agreed with you until the last point.

Protest marches are good since we don't do enough of them. I don't like it when the LBGTQ??? group monopolises liberal speech since it is important to rich privileged white people and not something they (secretly) feel conflicted about like the BLM, the (illegal) immigrant rights and the white working class.

JM
(and sometimes not so secretly)

[Elok]

Protest marches have the potential to do some good if used effectively, but honestly the modern Left just sucks at them--Occupy didn't do a bloody thing, BLM doesn't seem to be doing much either, and the women's march isn't going to do anything unless it degenerates into a (*****?) riot. They've turned into freakshows, more about expressing anger than about achieving long-term political goals, and there is no flipping way in hell these people are going to out-freakshow Donald Trump. Not when he's got the presidency. He loves freakshows. His LIFE is a freakshow. They're trying to drown a fish here.

[Fake Boris]

Back in the good old days, the usual suspects were posting stuff about the US being on an obvious transition to fascism. Turns out we were right.

[Elok]

Just as a reminder (in case anyone forgot), I started worrying intensely about this crazy bastard way back in the primaries. I might be somewhere ahead of you guys on the stages of freakout, having started earlier.

[Lorizael]

Sava, if you notice, I disagree with Elok and JM rather strenuously on this stuff, but I somehow haven't come to the conclusion that they (or anyone) should die in creative, obscene ways. If that's what you think, then I suspect your recreational activities have diminished your attention span so much that your reading comprehension has become abysmally inaccurate. Maybe work on that and post again when you can get through a paragraph without inventing an entirely different interpretation of it.