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The Moral Arc

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  • The Moral Arc

    So, I have once again made the fatuous mistake of trying to converse with hardcore progressives on FB. I honestly tried to be open and fair, which was stupid but seemed to begin well. I probably shouldn't have even touched a thread where an old college friend of mine, who is a very nice and very progressive person, asked people to talk about their feelings now that Trump was about to take over and start hunting lesbians for sport. There was a great deal of feeling unsafe and crying about lost futures and WHY DOES EVERYONE HATE US, and let's just say it went slowly downhill until I got chastised for insensitivity and had the sense to bow out before I got compared to Hitler.

    I'm still not totally clear about why people are still acting this catatonically upset two months on. If I am to take these claims at face value, they are feeling and acting about how I would six months after my mother died in a horrible wreck. If Hillary had won, the hardcore conservatives would be forming militias, stockpiling ammo, and doing other demented but arguably sorta constructive things. Their general mentality would be "**** THAT WORTHLESS WHORE WE'LL SHOW HER." These folks are, well, hugging their teddies in the safe space. Why?

    The simplest, but most mean-spirited explanation is that this is a manifestation of what the Atlantic last year summed up as "victim culture," wherein Young People These Days compete to be the most oppressed and therefore most entitled to attention and vengeance from an external source of authority or validation, yadda yadda. In other words, it's a kind of play-act. But that would require me to believe that it's all basically insincere. So I'm going to proceed on the assumption that this is sincere, but that these people are not the utter ninnies that would seem to imply.

    My most promising theory is that these folks really believe in something like MLK's "moral arc of the universe," wherein it's somehow natural for things to continually get better a little bit at a time, with some minor backsliding to be expected. Hillary was a sequel to Obama, a pinnacle of the Fezzian moral vision where the first woman president succeeds the first black president and rights for everyone get all the way better--basically, they're approaching the liberal-prog singularity. Past the curve in the hockey stick. But then, somehow, a parody of Republicanism so grotesque that even Republicans don't like him swoops in and steals her place. They're upset about their jeopardized gay marriages and abortions and Hamilton performances and stuff, but more than that, they're upset because this upsets their understanding of how the story is supposed to go. The universe is all wrong now. The math isn't adding up anymore. They feel like I feel when human beings do the right thing without profit motive, but much more so. They've attempted to make it right by inventing horse**** about Russian "hacking" or trying to subvert the Electoral College (or just blaming it, like a three million margin on the gilded turd is something to be proud of). I thought it was about Trump himself, but I wonder if it's more like disappointed believers redoing their math from Revelation so the end of the world prediction might not be a total fizzle after all.

    Your thoughts? Also, for extra credit, is there an interpretation of the whole "privilege" concept that is not essentially about constructing an inverted status hierarchy and forcing the less crippled *****es to know their place when the big kids are talking?
    1011 1100
    Pyrebound--a free online serial fantasy novel

  • #2
    Also, http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2...the_trump.html
    1011 1100
    Pyrebound--a free online serial fantasy novel

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    • #3
      Elok is a douche.

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      • #4
        Biznatch, you were calling Fez a special snowflake maybe two days after the election, so spare me.
        1011 1100
        Pyrebound--a free online serial fantasy novel

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        • #5
          Meg, a great many progressives seem to have lost their minds and have completely become detached from reality. Maybe next time they will bother to get off their back sides and actually show up to vote.

          It wouldn't hurt if the Dems could manage to find a candidate worth voting for.
          Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Elok View Post
            Biznatch, you were calling Fez a special snowflake maybe two days after the election, so spare me.
            If he's wary of the religious right, that at least is perfectly reasonable. It wasn't that long ago that being gay was illegal in many states and that only ended because the Supreme Court said so. Who knows what kind of whackjobs Trump could appoint to fill vacancies?

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            • #7
              It's Facebook, that's what it exists for. You unfollow everyone who bothers you. Just Trump can't be unfollowed as the story after story is so pervasive ... so the whole system shuts down.

              Kinda like if every time you went to church you found it filled with a clown with a bullhorn getting pissed on by prostitutes. Allegedly. (The piss part, the rest is surely true.)

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              • #8
                Also there is probably a lot of what you're speculating about, genuine fear, victim competitions, and a vast number of other motivations.

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                • #9
                  All Putin needs to manipulate Trump is some hookers with full bladders

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                  • #10
                    I have plenty of liberal friends on Facebook and in other spaces who do some of what you're describing, and I don't participate in any of that, but I'm trying as hard as possible not to judge what they're doing at all. For whatever reason, they feel that's the appropriate response. As mentally ****ed up as I am (in general, not about the election specifically), I'm in no position to judge what other people deem to be the right response.

                    But the thing I've been thinking about is... we are likely not heading toward a fascist, genocidal future at the hands of Emperor Trump, but we could be. There really isn't enough historical data (as in, number of instances) for us to say definitively that this path will definitely lead to tears or not. And certainly, it's easy to point to signs and say, this is troubling, this is cause for concern, etc. None of that means tragedy is guaranteed or even likely... but maybe Hitler wasn't likely either. It's easy to say in hindsight that the aftermath of WWI and European antisemitism and blah blah blah all converged on the awful history we got... but we can't know what was actually likely.

                    And yet even if Hitler was unlikely, every Jew in Germany during the 1930s eventually came to the conclusion that this was not business as usual, that **** was going down, that their whole lives were now all about surviving Nazi Germany, escaping, resisting, etc. They could no longer lead normal lives. They were defined entirely by the unbearable circumstances in which they found themselves.

                    Again, we're probably not there, probably won't get there, but are any of us really equipped to say if we are or are not? And if a very dark future is possible for America now in a way that wouldn't have been the case had Trump not been elected, then I'm really not sure I have any right to complain when people respond to that in a way I wouldn't. Because if that is the future, then that's what all our lives will be about from now on.

                    You talk about the moral arc there, and you seem to think people are naive for believing that the universe will naturally bend toward justice, but I think there is a very similar naivete in believing we all have to just suck it up and endure a mildly ****ty Trump presidency. For sufficiently terrible outcomes, not all of us get to endure it, and history does not have a habit of refraining from terrible outcomes.
                    Click here if you're having trouble sleeping.
                    "We confess our little faults to persuade people that we have no large ones." - François de La Rochefoucauld

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                    • #11
                      I don't know what the right response to Americans should be. I've dealt with politicians since I was a teen-ager. Most sincerely believe in doing good though their definition of what good is is greatly divergent. Most will stretch the truth from time to time if they are fairly sure they can get away with it... and this is where this American election has changed.

                      Soon to be president Donald Trump will do the equivalent of stand on stage naked and swear he is wearing a new suit. He will yell at anyone who does not acknowledge his new suit. He will call them liars. He has found sycophants who will compliment him on his new suit. And he's been doing this for months. And many many people voted for him although he's a naked liar.

                      This is new at least I've never seen such a crude barefaced liar before rise so high.

                      If you are one of those people who have a problem with his behavior and know he and his ilk will have real impact on your life and your children's lives, would you not be worried?

                      I'm worried and I'm not American. What he does will effect the world, and I'm sure not for the better.

                      How many of the half dozen living US presidents will attend his swearing in?
                      Last edited by Uncle Sparky; January 15, 2017, 02:15.
                      There's nothing wrong with the dream, my friend, the problem lies with the dreamer.

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                      • #12
                        I think it's important to differentiate between those who voted FOR Trump, and those who voted R or AGAINST Hillary.

                        Trump may have around 20 million who really wouldn't care if he shot someone in Time square ... but the vast majority of Americans wouldn't let him get away with that.

                        He barely won the EC and lost the popular vote against a historically disliked candidate who was under investigation by the FBI just before the election. If he acts as if he has a mandate to do anything atrocious his own party would happily kick him out.

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                        • #13
                          The danger with Trump is perhaps longer term it the R machine accepts they have to play Trumps game to stay relevant. That is something that on a longer timeframe might lead to a generation where closer to half the population would follow a Trump like figure down the rabbit hole.

                          So really we should probably root for Trump to be as terrible as people fear he will be.

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                          • #14
                            I definitely do fear that our country and world are at risk because of Trump. That is because I fear his (and his associates) blatant corruption, concern only for winning, disregard for international order and having someone obviously unstable at the red button for a country with military ties throughout the globe.

                            It is clear to me that the people who are most concerned are the groups with the (I think) least to fear from Trump. Trump's rhetoric against the Muslims and Hispanics were some of the worst, yet both groups don't seem so concerned. African Americans have recently (1970s) experienced open attacks against their lives and property and don't see this as the end of the world, even though some Trump supporters seem to support returning to this situation.

                            No the groups that are the most concerned are white women who are one of the most privileged groups in the US (and who, as a group, supported Trump) and white homosexuals who have never experienced a sustained open attack against their lives and property in US history. Neither group are the focus of attack by Trump or his rabid supporters (the latter is under attack by Trump's recent allies in the religious right, but he has no intrinsic interest in their cause and did not attack them in his rhetoric). Not only that, but even the religious right mostly doesn't what to make homosexuality illegal and make an open attack on homosexuals lives and property but rather to have the right to be intolerant of homosexuals.

                            It does seem to be some sort of group narcism involved.

                            JM
                            (Once more, I am very frightened of Trump and wish the Electoral College had defended us against him, but that was purely for foreign policy and sovereignty reasons.)

                            (I like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbeatG_M4JE )
                            Jon Miller-
                            I AM.CANADIAN
                            GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Lorizael View Post
                              You talk about the moral arc there, and you seem to think people are naive for believing that the universe will naturally bend toward justice, but I think there is a very similar naivete in believing we all have to just suck it up and endure a mildly ****ty Trump presidency. For sufficiently terrible outcomes, not all of us get to endure it, and history does not have a habit of refraining from terrible outcomes.
                              Oh, it could go very badly. I always expect things to go badly, you know that. I'm mildly relieved that Trump's cabinet picks reveal an unimaginative troglo-conservatism. But there's no preparing for literally absolutely anything, and no immediate reason to suspect anything more terrible than an unusually crude and stupid version of standard GOP policy.
                              1011 1100
                              Pyrebound--a free online serial fantasy novel

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