Police officers now considered offensive

[Jon Miller]

Obama is on the liberal side of the African American Christian community (in my experience) but is on the conservative side of the 'white' liberal-mainline Christian community (admitedly I have less experience there). These two groups make up just as large of Christian community in the US as the 'white' Evangelicals.

A subset of Christians in the US do not get to claim to speak for all of Christianity, particularly in saying that a member of another subset that reflects the positions of that (equivalent) subset, is not Christian or is opposed to Christianity.

JM

[Kidlicious]

Obama is on the liberal side of the African American Christian community (in my experience) but is on the conservative side of the 'white' liberal-mainline Christian community (admitedly I have less experience there). These two groups make up just as large of Christian community in the US as the 'white' Evangelicals.

A subset of Christians in the US do not get to claim to speak for all of Christianity, particularly in saying that a member of another subset that reflects the positions of that (equivalent) subset, is not Christian or is opposed to Christianity.

JM

You'll have to be more specific about "white liberal mainline." There is liberal mainline, and not so liberal mainline. Then there is conservative mainline. Jeremiah Wright is not mainline, is he? If Obama has a Christian theology I would say that he is not mainline.

[Jon Miller]

Lutheran, Anglican and so on are liberal-mainline.

I would say that Obama's Christian theology fits very well with mainline Christianity in America.

I put the descriptor 'white' in front to help people out (and because other than SDAs, Muslims and JWs, religion in the US is very segregated: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...igious-groups/).

JM

[Kidlicious]

Lutheran, Anglican and so on are liberal-mainline.

I would say that Obama's Christian theology fits very well with mainline Christianity in America.

I put the descriptor 'white' in front to help people out (and because other than SDAs, Muslims and JWs, religion in the US is very segregated: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...igious-groups/).

JM

IDK why you would say that. I know Christians who are very liberal theologically. I can carry on a conversation with them for some time and agree with them in most of what they say, but on the things they don't say we will have great disagreements.

[rah]

I've had many priests that I didn't agree with politically. So how does Rev Wright necessarily define Obama?

[Jon Miller]

Have you read anything about or by Obama related to his spirituality other than references to Wright?

I have, which is why I place him where I do.

Hillary is between liberal-mainline and evangelical, btw, and more religious than her husband.

JM
(when I have mentioned liberal-mainline that is primary a reference to the theology and not the politics, although most liberal-mainline churches are pretty liberal politically. African-American churches are generally liberally politically but not in theology, in my experience.)

[Kidlicious]

I've had many priests that I didn't agree with politically. So how does Rev Wright necessarily define Obama?

For example, when police are murdered he always talks about police being racist and violent towards black men. Similarly after 9-11 Wright didn't condemn the terrorists. He condemned America. Obama has used similar language when he has talked about Cuba, as if the US oppressed Cuba. When there is a terrorist attack he is more concerned about Muslim's than he is about the victims.

Now there is a difference in the language that he uses but there is a difference in the audience too. He isn't talking to a church full of black people who hate America and white people.

[Kidlicious]

Have you read anything about or by Obama related to his spirituality other than references to Wright?

I have, which is why I place him where I do.

Hillary is between liberal-mainline and evangelical, btw, and more religious than her husband.

JM
(when I have mentioned liberal-mainline that is primary a reference to the theology and not the politics, although most liberal-mainline churches are pretty liberal politically. African-American churches are generally liberally politically but not in theology, in my experience.)

I understand that he isn't a liberation theologian like Wright may be. He may be liberal Christian. I'm not really arguing that he isn't. He is very hostile towards conservative Christians which always makes me wonder about liberal Christians. But I don't like to say whether people are Christian or not.

That said, we are talking about politicians here. I don't really believe in Trump's recent conversion either. But I would never say that he isn't a Christian. I'm just saying that a politician is going to do what a politician does.

[rah]

Now there is a difference in the language that he uses

Yes, there is. You can assume what you think it means all you want, but you're just assuming.

[Kidlicious]

Yes, there is. You can assume what you think it means all you want, but you're just assuming.

When two people think in similar ways, and one attended the others church for twenty years it's called an appropriate assumption.

[Jon Miller]

I have noticed in general that (politically) conservative Christians are much more hostile to (politically) liberal Christians than visa versa. This is definitely true of Obama and Hillary.

This is probably because of the general nature of liberals to be more tolerant. That has been changing recently, not because conservatives have become more tolerant but because liberals have become less tolerant.

JM
(The lack of tolerance has been true of the far left and ivory tower for a while but is now seeping into the rest of the left.)
(Neither Hillary nor Obama are members of either the far left or the ivory tower left, despite the fact that Obama was a professor (maybe it was because he was a professor at University of Chicago).)

[Kidlicious]

I have noticed in general that (politically) conservative Christians are much more hostile to (politically) liberal Christians than visa versa. This is definitely true of Obama and Hillary.

This is probably because of the general nature of liberals to be more tolerant. That has been changing recently, not because conservatives have become more tolerant but because liberals have become less tolerant.

JM
(The lack of tolerance has been true of the far left and ivory tower for a while but is now seeping into the rest of the left.)
(Neither Hillary nor Obama are members of either the far left or the ivory tower left, despite the fact that Obama was a professor (maybe it was because he was a professor at University of Chicago).)

Liberals are not more tolerant. They just claim to be. Their intolerance is more passive though. I attend a Methodist Church. There are some very liberal Christians there. There are also some conservatives, but they are much more likely to keep their conservative views to themselves because they fear being judged for them. Not me though. I will say whatever I think. But I get dirty looks from some people. At one point I considered leaving that church because of it, but I chose to stay. Many others would leave. That's how we get liberal and conservative churches.

[Jon Miller]

Methodists are mainline (Hillary is a Methodist). My experience is that churches have traditionally sorted themselves by liberal/conservative theology and not politics. It is only recently, with the evangelicals going full Republican, that we have started to see division by politics.

JM
(The African American churches have been politically liberal for a long time, but I think that was a response to Nixon's Southern strategy and not for other reasons.)
(One of the churches I regularly attend is an Assembly of God megachurch, which is not majority white and has moderate (today I would say liberal) (white) leadership. The leadership is very interested in reconciliation. It isn't the normal evangelical church though.)

[Kidlicious]

Methodists are mainline (Hillary is a Methodist). My experience is that churches have traditionally sorted themselves by liberal/conservative theology and not politics. It is only recently, with the evangelicals going full Republican, that we have started to see division by politics.

JM
(The African American churches have been politically liberal for a long time, but I think that was a response to Nixon's Southern strategy and not for other reasons.)
(One of the churches I regularly attend is an Assembly of God megachurch, which is not majority white and has moderate (today I would say liberal) (white) leadership. The leadership is very interested in reconciliation. It isn't the normal evangelical church though.)

It's not really like that. For example, Methodists don't really have to believe in the church doctrine, and I'm not just talking about the members. I'm talking about the pastors and elders. The doctrine is conservative btw. Also, there are many liberals that attend Baptist churches. Pentecostal is different though, but there are those who are less conservative than most.

[rah]

When two people think in similar ways, and one attended the others church for twenty years it's called an appropriate assumption.

When two people think in similar ways,

Assumption.

appropriate assumption.

still an Assumption.