The Balance of Decency

[Aeson]

I think you have to trust enough people to be decent enough that free speech (ideas, not necessarily location) will be a positive thing. Once you get to the point you're considering restricting speech because people in general can't handle it well, laws restricting speech aren't going to fix the problems and will almost surely end up being used to target the reasonable.

[Lorizael]

I am specifically not talking about using laws to restrict speech. My question is about how a community should conduct itself in order to maximize the free flow of ideas. I'm arguing that a community which shows no restraint at all will drive away a certain segment of the population, whereas a community that shows too much is going to drive away another segment. Thus, some kind of middle path must be found.

I don't think it's at all clear that a completely unrestrained community maximizes discussion, especially considering that I know of absolutely no community anywhere which is completely unrestrained. There are taboos is every community.

[Giancarlo]

Gian was tallking about helicopters.

But now he's an upstanding man.


He says cliton is better, I'll believe him

That's a highly unnecessary comment.

[Giancarlo]

I think you have had a few too many drinks tonight

Probably a couple of these:

http://www.barnonedrinks.com/drinks/by_ingredient/r/red-bull-energy-drink-754.html

Jagerbomb anyone?

[Aeson]

I am specifically not talking about using laws to restrict speech. My question is about how a community should conduct itself in order to maximize the free flow of ideas. I'm arguing that a community which shows no restraint at all will drive away a certain segment of the population, whereas a community that shows too much is going to drive away another segment. Thus, some kind of middle path must be found.

I don't think it's at all clear that a completely unrestrained community maximizes discussion, especially considering that I know of absolutely no community anywhere which is completely unrestrained. There are taboos is every community.

It's the same issue. If a community is to the point that social warriors are driving reasonable people to be quiet out of fear, that community isn't going to regulate speech (via whatever methods) in a way that will be healthy.

If the community would self sensor over the top stuff voluntarily, there's no need to worry because the community at large is already going to behave well.

[Elok]

Experience on Poly (which probably isn't analogous to real life) shows that the real danger is that argument with the extremists won't drive the moderate folk away so much as drown them out.

[kentonio]

In recent years I have been been criticized in my church and outside for saying all lives matter. Apparently since I dont agree that Black Lives Matter and say All Lives Matter I am labeled a racist or Rascist when in fact I am merely stating all lives matter.

Do you understand why they think its an ignorant and/or racist thing to say though?

[Giancarlo]

It's the same issue. If a community is to the point that social warriors are driving reasonable people to be quiet out of fear, that community isn't going to regulate speech (via whatever methods) in a way that will be healthy.

If the community would self sensor over the top stuff voluntarily, there's no need to worry because the community at large is already going to behave well.

This is the accusation that is leveled at the LGBT community all the time and it is completely false. Nobody is silencing anyone. We just don't allow bigotry to continue without a response.

People confuse criticism with suppression all the time and it just happened on here. People are free to express their ideas and other people are free to criticize it as BS.

When you freely allow right wing extremists to have a voice they will damage everyone.

[kentonio]

When you freely allow right wing extremists to have a voice they will damage everyone.

No they won't, their bull**** will be called out as bull**** by everyone, and over time they may just come to realize that when lots of reasonable people say they're talking ****, that they just might be.

All that is achieved by shouting people down is to drive them into increasingly hate filled little groups where they fuel their original bull**** with victimization. Incidentally any university that bows to student pressure to not invite controversial speakers or not allow some discussion topics is a disgrace and should be closed immediately.

[Giancarlo]

No they won't, their bull**** will be called out as bull**** by everyone, and over time they may just come to realize that when lots of reasonable people say they're talking ****, that they just might be.

All that is achieved by shouting people down is to drive them into increasingly hate filled little groups where they fuel their original bull**** with victimization. Incidentally any university that bows to student pressure to not invite controversial speakers or not allow some discussion topics is a disgrace and should be closed immediately.

Re-read what I said. You are wrong. I was saying "freely allow". That means no offering no criticism because people are too scared they might hurt their feelings and be accused of silencing them.

I think it's best to shout down *******s when necessary. Especially when they make the environment so toxic for students who may be struggling with their sexual orientation and/or gender identity. A toxic environment is far worse.

And a university is supposed to be neutral and institution where one learns. Not a place where you have to walk by morons yelling "you're going to hell" and often were screaming. Yeah, they really want a conversation right? I was made to feel extremely uncomfortable when they did show up to my campus. While I may have been uncomfortable, I couldn't imagine those who were struggling with themselves. And I did go to a public university, and they were always allowed to be there with a proper permit.

So all you're doing is allowing for a toxic environment and hate to spread.

[Lorizael]

No they won't, their bull**** will be called out as bull**** by everyone, and over time they may just come to realize that when lots of reasonable people say they're talking ****, that they just might be.

The data do not support this hypothesis.

[kentonio]

Re-read what I said. You are wrong. I was saying "freely allow". That means no offering no criticism because people are too scared they might hurt their feelings and be accused of silencing them.

Ah, you were arguing against that thing that absolutely no-one has suggested? Makes sense..

I think it's best to shout down *******s when necessary. Especially when they make the environment so toxic for students who may be struggling with their sexual orientation and/or gender identity. A toxic environment is far worse.

There is not only one solution to any problem. The choices are not just 'accept all forms of bigotry and hate speech, or shout down all things you consider bigoted'.

And a university is supposed to be neutral and institution where one learns. Not a place where you have to walk by morons yelling "you're going to hell" and often were screaming. Yeah, they really want a conversation right? I was made to feel extremely uncomfortable when they did show up to my campus. While I may have been uncomfortable, I couldn't imagine those who were struggling with themselves. And I did go to a public university, and they were always allowed to be there with a proper permit.

So all you're doing is allowing for a toxic environment and hate to spread.

Who are you actually talking about? What permits? I'm talking about the recent trend of student bodies trying to have speakers banned from universities for holding controversial beliefs, trying to get lecturers fired for saying things they don't like, and trying to shout down any student that has opinions outside the accepted view.

Universities are not supposed to be warm, cuddly places, they're supposed to be places where your preconceptions are strongly tested, and you're taught to approach life with an open mind. That's not to say people should ever have to tolerate being shouted at in the halls etc (that should be a public order/safety issue, not freedom of speech per se) but what is discussed in classes and lectures should be determined by strength of argument, not by who can shout loudest.

[Giancarlo]

Ah, you were arguing against that thing that absolutely no-one has suggested? Makes sense..



There is not only one solution to any problem. The choices are not just 'accept all forms of bigotry and hate speech, or shout down all things you consider bigoted'.



Who are you actually talking about? What permits? I'm talking about the recent trend of student bodies trying to have speakers banned from universities for holding controversial beliefs, trying to get lecturers fired for saying things they don't like, and trying to shout down any student that has opinions outside the accepted view.

Universities are not supposed to be warm, cuddly places, they're supposed to be places where your preconceptions are strongly tested, and you're taught to approach life with an open mind. That's not to say people should ever have to tolerate being shouted at in the halls etc (that should be a public order/safety issue, not freedom of speech per se) but what is discussed in classes and lectures should be determined by strength of argument, not by who can shout loudest.

Universities are supposed to be neutral zones where people go to learn. Not be shouted at by religious preachers telling them they are going to hell. So what is the best thing to do? Ban them from being there as they are a detriment to the atmosphere of learning.

If one wants to be a religious right wing fanatic, there are plenty of christian private colleges out there where indoctrination is more valued than learning.

[kentonio]

Universities are supposed to be neutral zones where people go to learn. Not be shouted at by religious preachers telling them they are going to hell. So what is the best thing to do? Ban them from being there as they are a detriment to the atmosphere of learning.

Why would you be shouted at by a preacher? If the college invites a preacher to do a lecture on a topic, then you have the absolute right to not attend that lecture. You don't however have the right to stop it happening because you don't like it.

If one wants to be a religious right wing fanatic, there are plenty of christian private colleges out there where indoctrination is more valued than learning.

Have you considered that maybe listening to a right wing preacher might actually teach you a lot about how people of different viewpoints see society and the world, and that just maybe that might be really useful information for people studying a wide variety of topics? It might also be useful information for anyone who is intending to actually live in a country where such people are a powerful force in political and social life. Listening to someone doesn't mean you have to accept or approve of what they say.

[Giancarlo]

Why would you be shouted at by a preacher? If the college invites a preacher to do a lecture on a topic, then you have the absolute right to not attend that lecture. You don't however have the right to stop it happening because you don't like it.



Have you considered that maybe listening to a right wing preacher might actually teach you a lot about how people of different viewpoints see society and the world, and that just maybe that might be really useful information for people studying a wide variety of topics? It might also be useful information for anyone who is intending to actually live in a country where such people are a powerful force in political and social life. Listening to someone doesn't mean you have to accept or approve of what they say.

Oh. You were talking about lectures. Fine. I have no issue with that. I simply wouldn't attend. But when these people are out in common areas yelling and preaching... that I have a major problem with.

As to your second paragraph. What would I learn? That their idiots? Doesn't take too long to figure that one out. Not so powerful anymore by the way. Maybe years ago, but they have diminished greatly in sway.