The Balance of Decency

[Lorizael]

I agree wholeheartedly with this classic xkcd, but it brings up a point with subtle implications. Between speech deemed illegal (fire in a crowded theater, imminent lawless action, etc.) and perfectly acceptable speech ("TPM is not the worst Star Wars movie"), there is an amorphous, shifting category of speech that you're allowed to say, but maybe you shouldn't say. Whether this is any of Trump's mind-boggling utterances or "joking" rape threats against feminists or Holocaust denial, there are plenty of ways to express yourself that might not get you thrown in jail, but will get you condemned, boycotted, and so on.

Now, there is an argument to be made that this social shaming is useful because it exposes awful opinions to criticism, which is what the marketplace of ideas is all about. The difficulty, however, is that both indecent speech and the shaming of indecent speech can lead to the same consequence: the chilling of speech. That is, indecent speech can cause plenty of people to withdraw entirely from a social situation because they don't want to be involved with such ugly stuff. But on the other side, the collective shaming of such speech can lead to people being unwilling to speak up at all for fear of being associated with indecent elements.

So, because there is an unpleasant extreme on both ends, a balance of decency is required, such that people aren't too disgusted or too afraid to participate in the exchange of ideas. What is that balance? How do you encourage oddball/satirical/impolite ideas while discouraging disruptive, hateful rhetoric? Have we lost the balance and veered too far toward one extreme? Is this thread secretly about Apolyton? (No. I mean that. No, it is not.)

[rah]

Another thinly veiled thread about Ben.


In all serious I think public shaming does serve some purpose. I do expect that all the shaming in the world is unlikely to change a hateful persons opinion.
However, It does invoke a sense of self. Like I may not be perfect, but I'm much better than that S*** stain. People can use anything that make them feel better about themselves. But you're right there is a fine line.
But I think more good than bad.

[Elok]

My general rule of thumb is that boycotts should not be considered morally legitimate unless the activity boycotted deserves to be actually illegal. All other constraints on individual liberty should follow the rule of whether allowing the behavior to continue would cause measurable harm. The vast majority of the time, speech causes no measurable harm, and saying otherwise typically entails conflating speech with violence. Which in turn creates a perverse incentive to magnify one's feeling of offense as far as possible in order to shut down all opposition in the name of preventing emotional distress or what-have-you.

[rah]

Boycotts have been shown to be quite effective.
Think of the black boycott of Budweiser called by J Jackson due to the lack of Minorities in upper management.
It was so effective that Budweiser granted Jesse's son a lucrative distributorship in the Chicago area.
So even though they didn't hire any minorities on their board Jesse considered the boycott a success and called it off.

[Elok]

Wow, that's . . . quite skeezy.

[Giancarlo]

Those who whine about their freedom of speech being violated when they get criticized, typically don't have an argument to begin with. We see the religious right scream about freedom of speech being violated because same sex marriage was legalized.

Apparently, freedom is only good enough for themselves and not anyone else.

[rah]

Wow, that's . . . quite skeezy.

Which is why whenever I see him at a podium bashing the white man, I take it with a grain of salt.

[The Mad Monk]

White salt?

[Grandpa Troll]

Those who whine about their freedom of speech being violated when they get criticized, typically don't have an argument to begin with. We see the religious right scream about freedom of speech being violated because same sex marriage was legalized.

Apparently, freedom is only good enough for themselves and not anyone else.

Giancarlo

I dont hate anyone, love all people.

I grew up abused, while I dont sit and hate the people who abused me, I do struggle to forgive them.

I dont bash any lifestyle choices, however I dont support every lifestyle choice.

What gets me though is I am a Christian, not even close to be perfect nor am I a judge.

I am however lumped into "Religious Right" or whatever someone chooses to call me for my beliefs.

I have too many shortcomings to judge anyone for anything.

I dont share what desires I fight in my heart nor do I share known shortcomings.

I have often said things that were hurtful or even hateful, I apologized when I realized I had done these things.

Now because anyone chooses to live their life one way or another is not for me to give thumbs up or thumbs down.

I will say I dont apologize for being white, a male a veteran or former Lawman. In recent years I have been been criticized in my church and outside for saying all lives matter. Apparently since I dont agree that Black Lives Matter and say All Lives Matter I am labeled a racist or Rascist when in fact I am merely stating all lives matter.

I love your icon picture statement, you believe you were born born gay, and ask if anyone was born hateful. I feel deep down people have certain traits they side along with and certain traits they have been trained to embrace. I believe people can and should change bitter deep hatred of others simply because they are different than how themselves were raised.

Take care buddy!

Gramps

[Bereta_Eder]

**** 'em talibans
no offense

[Giancarlo]

Giancarlo

I dont hate anyone, love all people.

I grew up abused, while I dont sit and hate the people who abused me, I do struggle to forgive them.

I dont bash any lifestyle choices, however I dont support every lifestyle choice.

What gets me though is I am a Christian, not even close to be perfect nor am I a judge.

I am however lumped into "Religious Right" or whatever someone chooses to call me for my beliefs.

I have too many shortcomings to judge anyone for anything.

I dont share what desires I fight in my heart nor do I share known shortcomings.

I have often said things that were hurtful or even hateful, I apologized when I realized I had done these things.

Now because anyone chooses to live their life one way or another is not for me to give thumbs up or thumbs down.

I will say I dont apologize for being white, a male a veteran or former Lawman. In recent years I have been been criticized in my church and outside for saying all lives matter. Apparently since I dont agree that Black Lives Matter and say All Lives Matter I am labeled a racist or Rascist when in fact I am merely stating all lives matter.

I love your icon picture statement, you believe you were born born gay, and ask if anyone was born hateful. I feel deep down people have certain traits they side along with and certain traits they have been trained to embrace. I believe people can and should change bitter deep hatred of others simply because they are different than how themselves were raised.

Take care buddy!

Gramps

You are free to believe in any religion you want as that is guaranteed in the Constitution. But I am going to live my life in freedom and I know I was born this way. It isn't a question about me believing in this, but rather knowing it.

I also say all lives matter, but I also say that the missteps and abuses by certain members of law enforcement is an affront to the entire legal system. As someone who works in the legal system, I view abuses of the process with great contempt. Some officers are circumventing the entire process and must be held accountable. At the same time, those who commit any sort of act of violence in protest forget what Robert F Kennedy once warned the nation about after Martin Luther King was assassinated. Violence breeds violence and hatred breeds hatred.

We cannot fall down the path of anarchy because of hatred. Hatred is a spear that strikes into the heart of this nation, turning it into darkness. Trump represents this darkness. Once we view others with suspicion because of who they are, is the moment we sacrifice our own freedom to fear.

[Bereta_Eder]

live my life in freedom

Which translates to...

(wait for it)


**** you taliban


Interesting though, apart form antisemitism, Trump is also homophobic?
Tapping into the soul of the nation?




**** 'em talibans

[Bereta_Eder]

Although (gian will disagree with me) he'll be better than clinton.
He just wants to get to the presidency to break even with his humungous companies debt.
He changes opinions like shirts. He just wants the money.

Anyway.

[Giancarlo]

Although (gian will disagree with me) he'll be better than clinton.
He just wants to get to the presidency to break even with his humungous companies debt.
He changes opinions like shirts. He just wants the money.

Anyway.

Trump would be the sh*test President this nation has ever seen. And what does that man know about managing anything? His businesses are said to have over half a billion in debt and have less liquidity that previously thought.

No way would he be better than even a flawed Hillary Clinton. I cannot fathom that dumbass Trump running this nation into the ground with his disgusting regressive policies.

He won't make money in the Presidency. He wants to launch his own entertainment network as I said in the past. Trump TV anyone? More money there.

[Giancarlo]

Which translates to...

(wait for it)


**** you taliban


Interesting though, apart form antisemitism, Trump is also homophobic?
Tapping into the soul of the nation?




**** 'em talibans

Trump riles up some old loud mouth idiots... Though that should not be underestimated. Hillary will win, but with the votes of women and minorities.