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  • #151
    Originally posted by Bereta_Eder View Post
    I agree with that. Everyone is saying this here too (left and right).
    I won't preclude the outcome (because i'm not god to know everything).
    Reality will tell
    Well so far Spain did a major thumbs down to populism. Podemos is more left wing anti austerity and I like what some of what they have to say, but the two establishment parties either won (PP) or expectably held most of their seats (PSOE).

    This anti establishment populism will be dead in it's tracks. This will be the case in the US too I think. People are getting spooked by the illogical stances. And believe me I'm very politically left wing... there are proper ways to conduct oneself, and that includes not killing a major economic and trade agreement.
    For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)

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    • #152
      a 2 year old political party taking over 20% in a national election is quite an achievement. populist parties took over 1/3 of the vote in this year's election. podemos has more than twice as many members as the PSOE and it has captured a lot of the youth vote. the PSOE is in big trouble.
      "The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.

      "The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton

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      • #153
        Another question to be asked is are they populist or simply popular...?

        edit: to make this clear. It seems the question of their critics is not their principles but the way they will be going about achieving them

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        • #154
          Let's be a bit more frank (and anyone can disagree with me)
          It seems that it isn't working.
          People are pissed the western world over. They thought it was just about the brown people, the moozlims or whatever but it's not.
          The gagraine is eating their own flesh now.

          And each country attributes it according to its national psyche.
          "It's the immigrants"
          "No, it's neoliberalism"
          "No, it's the reds"
          "It's the irrational left, right, whatever"

          But wealth is accumulating and people are pissed. Even in countries with no strong humanitarian ethics (US) people ARE pissed.

          Not saying one is right the other is wrong.

          Just saying the gangrene is eating away at the middle class now... and all bets are off

          Comment

          • #155
            Originally posted by C0ckney View Post
            a 2 year old political party taking over 20% in a national election is quite an achievement. populist parties took over 1/3 of the vote in this year's election. podemos has more than twice as many members as the PSOE and it has captured a lot of the youth vote. the PSOE is in big trouble.
            Yet in this key vote, Podemos failed completely to capture more seats and were projected to take second, yet ended up in third. This was a major loss for Podemos, even though they didn't lose seats. They lost a bit of sway among 30-40 year old voters who fled back to the establishment parties.

            Come on man, at least read the article.

            In big trouble, yet the PSOE retained second and Podemos failed to gain any seats. The big winner here is Rajoy unfortunately.
            For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)

            Comment

            • #156
              Originally posted by Bereta_Eder View Post
              Another question to be asked is are they populist or simply popular...?

              edit: to make this clear. It seems the question of their critics is not their principles but the way they will be going about achieving them
              Podemos moderated itself too and said no to leaving the EU. Cockney doesn't have a clue what he is talking about. He is always making hair brained statements, and now he is doing it again with Spain. Young people in my country don't want to leave the EU. That is something the far right wants, but it is stupid.

              Podemos is anti austerity, not anti-EU. They ditched the anti-EU attitudes quite a while back.

              Podemos, and the beginning of the end for Europe’s radical left | Cas Mudde
              https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/dec/21/podemos-europe-radical-left-party-syriza-pablo-iglesias-spanish-elections
              Distancing his party from Syriza and toning down his party’s message has paid off for Pablo Iglesias, but leftwing populism has lost some of its lustre


              Here is an article from some time ago, and it hasn't improved. Podemos has actually lost voters, even as they tried to moderate. Spain isn't Greece.
              Last edited by Giancarlo; July 28, 2016, 14:30.
              For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)

              Comment

              • #157
                Cockney believes that a smaller administrative compound would be more flexible to execute sensible policies.
                It's his prerogative and maybe he's right.

                Syriza also was not about leaving the EU "unless if". And in that respect it did some damage to podemos.

                Anyway, I don't know if the question is wether one stays in the EU or not (although the implications are manifestantly huge) but about the route society can/should take.
                Interesting discussion nonetheless

                Comment

                • #158
                  I think he is gravely mistaken and he was mistaken on Spain too. Most people don't want to leave the EU. Brexit was stupid, rash and wrong. Most see it that way.
                  For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)

                  Comment

                  • #159
                    Well maybe in the same way that Spain isn't Greece also UK isn't like another country either.
                    Each one takes its own route.

                    Now (and just to piss bebro but some things are said in jest) the UK leaving the EU is starting to look like a landscape after a liberation. All bets are off there and a lot of things are up for grabs. Who will prevail...? Uknown

                    Also the pro-EU spain youth statement seems a bit off.
                    There was a whole commotion made about the UK's yout being pro EU (and being betrayed) and the EU's youth being anti-EU
                    A big disrepancy.

                    It would be useful, to keep the conversation going, and as a tell sing of things to come (if things don't change) to have some stats about the EU sentiment of young people across the continent and its evolution the last 5 years
                    Last edited by Bereta_Eder; July 28, 2016, 14:58.

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                    • #160
                      The UK could certainly fall apart with Scotland wanting to leave and losing its economic standing. Its a collective screwup I don't think many other nations and people don't want to follow.

                      BTW, Syriza in Greece did not follow through with their anti-EU stance and cut a deal.
                      For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)

                      Comment

                      • #161
                        It was never *really* anti - EU, in its entirety. It's complicated...

                        yep it cut a deal.

                        Comment

                        • #162
                          Originally posted by Giancarlo View Post
                          Yet in this key vote, Podemos failed completely to capture more seats and were projected to take second, yet ended up in third. This was a major loss for Podemos, even though they didn't lose seats. They lost a bit of sway among 30-40 year old voters who fled back to the establishment parties.

                          Come on man, at least read the article.

                          In big trouble, yet the PSOE retained second and Podemos failed to gain any seats. The big winner here is Rajoy unfortunately.
                          i am well aware of the situation in spain, thanks. one has to take a long term view of these things. the two parties that have dominated politics since the restoration of democracy are facing serious challenges, including one from a party founded just two years ago. the economic situation is still bad, with unemployment at 20%. catalonia is restless, and an independence vote may happen in the next couple of years: ¡visca catalunya!

                          also, again, podemos have far more members than the PSOE, and that membership is growing; meanwhile, the PSOE's membership is shrinking. and while podemos did not do as well as expected in the last elections, it came within 1% of a party that was in government until 2011. it also backed campaigns to get radical mayors elected in several major cities. it is building for the future.

                          Podemos moderated itself too and said no to leaving the EU. Cockney doesn't have a clue what he is talking about.
                          where did i say that podemos wanted spain to the leave the EU? are you just BAMing nonsense again?

                          (oh, and now spain is your country, i though it was the US, and for some reason i thought you were from argentina)
                          "The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.

                          "The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton

                          Comment

                          • #163
                            Originally posted by Bereta_Eder View Post

                            Also the pro-EU spain youth statement seems a bit off.
                            There was a whole commotion made about the UK's yout being pro EU (and being betrayed) and the EU's youth being anti-EU
                            A big disrepancy.

                            It would be useful, to keep the conversation going, and as a tell sing of things to come (if things don't change) to have some stats about the EU sentiment of young people across the continent and its evolution the last 5 years
                            indeed that would be very interesting. i note that the FN, which is anti-EU, has captured the youth vote in france. so perhaps that tells us something, or not.
                            "The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.

                            "The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton

                            Comment

                            • #164
                              Originally posted by C0ckney View Post
                              i am well aware of the situation in spain, thanks. one has to take a long term view of these things. the two parties that have dominated politics since the restoration of democracy are facing serious challenges, including one from a party founded just two years ago. the economic situation is still bad, with unemployment at 20%. catalonia is restless, and an independence vote may happen in the next couple of years: ¡visca catalunya!
                              Spain will remain one nation. Your irrational politics will not materialize. Podemos moderated itself once it went national. It is essentially a new PSOE. Your ideas about my country are based on misconceptions and poorly founded ideas. Please next time understand what Podemos stands for. They ditched their anti-EU views quite some time ago and relations with Syriza became quite frosty.


                              also, again, podemos have far more members than the PSOE, and that membership is growing; meanwhile, the PSOE's membership is shrinking. and while podemos did not do as well as expected in the last elections, it came within 1% of a party that was in government until 2011. it also backed campaigns to get radical mayors elected in several major cities. it is building for the future.
                              It failed on the local level in many of its campaigns as the PP has regained footing and gained, and the PSOE has begun to hold its ground. Building for the future... Yet losing voters as it has. You aren't paying attention to what I am posting. The PSOE received many more votes than Podemos. I was not talking about membership.

                              Please for once, learn how to stay on topic.

                              where did i say that podemos wanted spain to the leave the EU? are you just BAMing nonsense again?
                              You are well known about your irrational antiEU views and you are BAMing like a fool about my country.

                              (oh, and now spain is your country, i though it was the US, and for some reason i thought you were from argentina)
                              Bam! You did it again. You obviously are too ignorant to even read. I always said I am from Spain. I lived in Argentina for a few years and the same with the US. It doesn't mean I came from those countries.

                              Get your head out of your ass please. You sound almost as bad as BK.
                              For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)

                              Comment

                              • #165
                                Podemos is rising as quickly as it has fallen. They are much like the United Left (IU) in Spain which was once touted as a major third party. They disappeared almost entirely. Podemos is nothing more than smoke and mirrors. Much like the rest of the fading anti-EU bull**** going around.

                                It won't surprise me if they lose half of their seats in the next election.
                                For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)

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