Which Religion's Slavers Were Better?

[Lorizael]

I assure you, if we mass deport 20 million people (the number Trump claims are "illegal") with the National Guard (which Trump has advocated), it will be done stupidly. That doesn't make it not bad.

[Lorizael]

Again, in terms of the outcomes they explicitly advocate for, I do not care about their motivations. I care that they are going to harm a lot of people.

[Lorizael]

"What if our rhetoric about how dangerous the other side is inspires mentally unhinged people to take matters into their own hands?"

Yeah, that's not a completely unreasonable worry. But what if the other side's rhetoric inspires millions of perfectly nice normal people who would totally help a drowning black child to favor extremely bad and harmful outcomes for the country and the people living in it? That seems a lot worse and where our attention really should be.

[Geronimo]

I think the mass deportation angle is primarily driven by people with poorly marketable skills or who have close family members in that situation. I say this because that is what they want to talk about when I engage them on this issue. I also hear about the dangers of an uncontrolled border but when I attempt to suggest that those concerns could be better dealt with by massively increasing legal immigration so that fewer resources are required to successfully discourage illegal entry they almost always drop those concerns and return to worries about their jobs or the jobs of their under-employed kids.

[Lorizael]

Yes, there are a lot of reasons why people get taken in by anti-immigrant rhetoric, and it's important to know those reasons if we want to change minds, but none of that changes that they still want a very bad outcome that will (ultimately) harm or kill a lot people, and we should vociferously oppose that. Actual mass deportation--which is historically either a precursor to ethnic cleansing or a form of ethnic cleansing itself--is much, much worse than opposing parties not being able to see eye to eye.

[Geronimo]

When you tell them the mass deportation is really part of an ethnic cleansing campaign or anything other than economic self interest it puts their back up. If it looks like we are trying to gas light them all it does is undermine our own credibility on this issue and likely every other issue they see us raise thereafter.

[Lorizael]

Misusing the term gaslighting is gaslighting.

[Lorizael]

Warning people that they have aligned themselves with a terrible goal spearheaded by actual out and out white supremacists that will harm millions of people is not gaslighting.

*guy speeds through red light*

"Hey man, you just ran that light."

"I'm in a hurry. I have an important job interview to get to!"

"Okay, but you could cause an accident and hurt someone. Vehicular manslaughter is not pretty."

"Stop gaslighting me!"

[Geronimo]

Warning people that they have aligned themselves with a terrible goal spearheaded by actual out and out white supremacists that will harm millions of people is not gaslighting.

*guy speeds through red light*

"Hey man, you just ran that light."

"I'm in a hurry. I have an important job interview to get to!"

"Okay, but you could cause an accident and hurt someone. Vehicular manslaughter is not pretty."

"Stop gaslighting me!"

ok. educate me how do you know this "mass deportation" idea is spearheaded by actual out and out white supremacists rather than out and out white supremacists trying to hijack their deportation band wagon? I think when you tell someone that their mass deportation sign is really a sign advocating ethnic cleansing that is gas-lighting in the sense of telling people that they are wrong about what their sign is about. classically gas lighting involves telling people that a first hand experience they've had was incorrect. In this case you're telling them what their sign means. even though the ethnic cleansing message is likely not something they have experienced either from whomever provided the sign or from any of the group of people holding the signs with them.

*guy speeds through yellow light*

"Hey man, you just ran that light."

"So? it was yellow. I would have had to stop sharply and maybe get rear ended by the car behind me."

"well actually if you did your research you'd find that in this case yellow means stop if you can and it's obvious you could have stopped easily. There's plenty of evidence that shows that the people who had that stoplight set up actually hoped that it would make people stop when they saw yellow so in reality that yellow light means stop."

"Stop gaslighting me!"

We can contrive other examples. My point is that the sign that says "Mass Deportation now!" cannot be said to ​say "mass ethnic cleansing now!" especially when talking to the sign holders but even when discussing with 3rd parties. It says and should be taken to mean "mass deportation now!". and that is the foolhardy message that should be engaged.

[Jon Miller]

Can you give me an example from history where 'mass deportation' did not originate from xenophobia?

JM

[Geronimo]

Can you give me an example from history where 'mass deportation' did not originate from xenophobia?

JM

​
All of the mass deportations presided over by the soviet union.

[Geronimo]

Also all of the mass deportations presided over by the Babylonian empire and the resettlement policy of the Neo-Assyrian Empire

[Jon Miller]

​
All of the mass deportations presided over by the soviet union.

I think there was xenophobia in many/all of them.

JM

[Jon Miller]

Also all of the mass deportations presided over by the Babylonian empire and the resettlement policy of the Neo-Assyrian Empire

I think that culture was different enough pre-enlightenment (and pre-dark ages) that these examples if they are good examples, are not relevant.

JM

[N35t0r]

​
All of the mass deportations presided over by the soviet union.

So, say, the Volga Germans being deported to central Asia was because they were all (including women and children) actively plotting with the West against the communist government?

Hint: if what you're doing is hardly distinguishable from ethnic cleansing and genocide, I highly doubt it's not xenophobic.