Zealot

[Kidlicious]

Yes, I know that I don't have religious beliefs. I have opinions, but I know that that's all they are, and that there's no way to verify or deny them.

If you know with certainty that you don't have religious beliefs then you are an atheist, one that lies, calling yourself something that you aren't, and saying that you believe something that you don't. That's just what I expected because I'm very skeptical of people who claim not to believe anything. Believing is human nature IMO.

[Sava]

On the contrary, a good deal of the appeal of Christianity, then and now, lies in the complex, bewildering, enigmatic, thunderous person of Jesus, who differs from the likes of Mithras or Osiris or Sol Invictus in being both historic and mythic; His life represents a cosmic drama being played out, not in some long-ago dreamtime, but in a definite place and time in history, by a recognizable human personality and not some austere collection of divine principles (or lack of principles, in the case of beings like Zeus). God becoming a man, who gets tired and sick and hungry and sad and hurt, but never stops being God, and dies for love. That's a pretty awesome thing to be a part of, and the reason why Jesus still has appeal today even in extreme Protestant circles that have discarded the entire Church superstructure.

the appeal is to ignorance

a fairy tale for morons

[Lorizael]

Sigh. Probably should have made a thread about the book on Neandertal cognition I read instead.

[ricketyclik]

If you know with certainty that you don't have religious beliefs then you are an atheist, one that lies, calling yourself something that you aren't, and saying that you believe something that you don't. That's just what I expected because I'm very skeptical of people who claim not to believe anything. Believing is human nature IMO.

No, you got that wrong. Let me try that again. I have religious opinions, not beliefs, because I know that my opinions be mistaken.

[Elok]

Sigh. Probably should have made a thread about the book on Neandertal cognition I read instead.

Then it would have sunk like a rock instead. So cheer up: it was doomed from the get-go.

[Kidlicious]

No, you got that wrong. Let me try that again. I have religious opinions, not beliefs, because I know that my opinions be mistaken.

I think you are under the impression that the fact that you doubt your beliefs that you're an agnostic. That's not the way you have defined the label you give yourself.

Elok doubts himself. I doubted myself when I was an atheist. But I wasn't an agnostic then, and elok isn't one now. If your opinion is that God doesn't exist (and you have said many things that indicate that) then you are an atheist. Opinions are beliefs.

[ricketyclik]

Again, wrong. I certainly don't believe the Bible mumbo jumbo, but that doesn't mean I don't suspect the existence of some sort of higher power that our fumbling human brains struggle to perceive. I don't think that makes me an atheist at all. But it does make me think Christians are kind of stupid sheep, which I guess a Christian would like to put in the atheist basket.

[Kidlicious]

Again, wrong. I certainly don't believe the Bible mumbo jumbo, but that doesn't mean I don't suspect the existence of some sort of higher power that our fumbling human brains struggle to perceive. I don't think that makes me an atheist at all. But it does make me think Christians are kind of stupid sheep, which I guess a Christian would like to put in the atheist basket.

You're more of an anti-christian then. It's very obvious. You may not be able to come to grips with that part of yourself, but it's obvious. Of course rah will now say that I'm the only one who believes that to help you deceive yourself about yourself.

[Kidlicious]

Also, I don't really care what your opinion of my religion is, but you clearly have strong beliefs. You probably have some degree of doubt, as you would have to desire to believe without doubt, but that doesn't make you a person who doesn't believe things that he doesn't know. I don't believe it's possible to be such a person. Maybe you can explain. Were you born that way or did you one day have beliefs but decided to believe nothing? It seems extraordinary. I'm not saying impossible, just extraordinary. Of course, I chose not to doubt, but let me tell you, I prayed to God for him to do it. I don't believe I could do it myself.

[ricketyclik]

Also, I don't really care what your opinion of my religion is, but you clearly have strong beliefs. You probably have some degree of doubt, as you would have to desire to believe without doubt, but that doesn't make you a person who doesn't believe things that he doesn't know. I don't believe it's possible to be such a person. Maybe you can explain. Were you born that way or did you one day have beliefs but decided to believe nothing? It seems extraordinary. I'm not saying impossible, just extraordinary. Of course, I chose not to doubt, but let me tell you, I prayed to God for him to do it. I don't believe I could do it myself.

No, I'm not anti-Christian. I think a lot of the messages that Christ is purported to have been carrying are admirable. I don't think he was a holy trinity though, any more than the rest of us, and I think he said that himself.

It's more the whole "Well I can do whatever the fvck I like but I have the moral high ground and will go to heaven because I have accepted Christ as my saviour" that I find unpalatable.

I also find the whole obsession with the afterlife revealing, in that most people who adhere to a church seem to be taking out insurance, rather than expressing any moral belief.

I was raised an atheist by atheists, but I found the miracle of existence as revealed by my studies of science enough to question that assumption. I find it difficult to believe that there isn't some organising force beyond physics to have produced such a majestic universe, from the macro to the micro levels, as well as the beauty of interactions with others. On the other hand, maybe it is all just an inevitability born from the laws of physics.

I really don't know, nor am I in a position to. I acknowledge that. Therefore I'm agnostic.

[ricketyclik]

In addition, the whole "You're either with us or agin us" aspect of churches/faiths is very destructive, and their main raison d'être. A lot of people who wear their religious hearts on their sleeves seem to be driven by this sentiment, and I find it ugly.

[Dinner]

What is the evidence he uses for his theory?

[Kidlicious]

No, I'm not anti-Christian. I think a lot of the messages that Christ is purported to have been carrying are admirable. I don't think he was a holy trinity though, any more than the rest of us, and I think he said that himself.

It's more the whole "Well I can do whatever the fvck I like but I have the moral high ground and will go to heaven because I have accepted Christ as my saviour" that I find unpalatable.

I also find the whole obsession with the afterlife revealing, in that most people who adhere to a church seem to be taking out insurance, rather than expressing any moral belief.

I was raised an atheist by atheists, but I found the miracle of existence as revealed by my studies of science enough to question that assumption. I find it difficult to believe that there isn't some organising force beyond physics to have produced such a majestic universe, from the macro to the micro levels, as well as the beauty of interactions with others. On the other hand, maybe it is all just an inevitability born from the laws of physics.

I really don't know, nor am I in a position to. I acknowledge that. Therefore I'm agnostic.

Let me state, for clariry, what agnosticism is. It is the devotion to not believing what can not be proven. Agnostics say that they don't believe in God because no one can prove his existence. But you clearly believe things that you don't know. For example, you have very negative, judgmental beliefs regarding Christians. Do you really believe you can judge people like that? Yes you do. Therefore you are not an agnostic.

Agnostic isn't just someone who doesn't believe in God and doesn't believe in atheism. If you think so, prove it.

[Kidlicious]

In addition, the whole "You're either with us or agin us" aspect of churches/faiths is very destructive, and their main raison d'être. A lot of people who wear their religious hearts on their sleeves seem to be driven by this sentiment, and I find it ugly.

Oh really? You're pretty against christians, and for stupid reasons. For example, you've said more than one time that people like me are mentally ill simply because we have strong religious convictions.

Maybe you like to project your own faults into others, and who better, in your mind, than Christians, who you despise.

[Aeson]

I am glad Kid is here to teach us about what we believe, and about what words mean ... because all my life I've known what I believe and had a dictionary ... but it turns out THOSE THINGS WERE LIES!