So I opened the Koran for the first time and the first verse I read was...

[NICE MOBIUS]

Kid:

Firstly, he's not head of the house - because that wouldn't be equal.

Secondly, he obviously doesn't bully his wife like you apparently did - no wonder she left you and apparently got some revenge in as well...

Truly you deserve what you get.

x-post

[Kidlicious]

I'm still married... and we are equal partners. How's your marriage working... oh, that's right...

Well, when I got married I was a feminist/communist. Not that it mattered.

Your personal experience doesn't matter. The divorce rate is 50%. There are a lot of reasons why people get divorced. You probably think it's because of male priviledge. I don't. But your personal experience doesn't matter. So why don't you stop being a bully.

[rah]

My 30th anniversary was yesterday. We also are equal partners.

(and I've never seen Ming bully his wife)

[Kidlicious]

Kid:

Firstly, he's not head of the house - because that wouldn't be equal.

Secondly, he obviously doesn't bully his wife like you apparently did - no wonder she left you and apparently got some revenge in as well...

Truly you deserve what you get.

x-post

Well. I can see that you are upset that I'm exposing your favorite anti-christian religion, but that's just not right.

[Kidlicious]

Kid:

Firstly, he's not head of the house - because that wouldn't be equal.

Secondly, he obviously doesn't bully his wife like you apparently did - no wonder she left you and apparently got some revenge in as well...

Truly you deserve what you get.

x-post

Well. I can see that you are upset that I'm exposing your favorite anti-christian religion, but that's just not right.

[Kidlicious]

My 30th anniversary was yesterday. We also are equal partners.

I wish you and your brother understood statistics.

[Kidlicious]

http://patch.com/georgia/marietta/the-top-10-reasons-marriages-end-in-divorce_14370092

The Top 10 Reasons Marriages End in Divorce
1. Lack of communication
2. Finances
3. Feeling constrained
4. Trust
5. Expectations from each other
6. Your spouse doesn’t understand / fulfill your needs and desires
7. Quick change in lifestyle
8. Insecurity
9. Religious and cultural differences
10. Abuse

None of those is because Ming doesn't like someone's religious beliefs.

[Kidlicious]

http://patch.com/georgia/marietta/the-top-10-reasons-marriages-end-in-divorce_14370092

The Top 10 Reasons Marriages End in Divorce
1. Lack of communication
2. Finances
3. Feeling constrained
4. Trust
5. Expectations from each other
6. Your spouse doesn’t understand / fulfill your needs and desires
7. Quick change in lifestyle
8. Insecurity
9. Religious and cultural differences
10. Abuse

None of those is because Ming doesn't like someone's religious beliefs.

[NICE MOBIUS]

Must suck that you failed on all 10 of those, Kid...

[Kidlicious]

Must suck that you failed on all 10 of those, Kid...

Must suck that you hate Christianity so much that you would personally attack someone who is arguing against beating your wife.

[Elok]

That nowadays in western civilization we have equal rights between men and women surely isn´t the work of christian religion ... rather the work of secularized society.
The problem in the muslim world insofar is, that unlike the western world they didn´t have something akin to the renaissance ... and therefore, if secular morals and religious morals strand in opposition, in a muslim country the religious morals win ... whereas in western society secular morals have a good chance to stand against religious morals

The difficulty with this argument is that the whole notion of "secular" does not exist in Islam. You're talking as though the course of Western history is a norm from which Islam tragically deviated; really our history is the deviation from a norm exemplified by Islam. And the deviation is due, in part, to Christianity. First because both Jesus and St. Paul preached an indifferent deference to political authorities, then because Xianity spent its formative years as an underground cult. By the time of Constantine the Church already had its own elaborate hierarchy, which Roman authorities suffered to exist alongside (and somewhat independent of) their own. Throughout the Middle Ages there were regular partnerships between the two hierarchies--but also regular conflicts.

The struggle ended in the Reformation and Enlightenment, when the secular hierarchy won by fragmenting the religious one and playing off the parts against each other (political power was increasingly centralized at the same time). Religion was forced to confine itself to ever-narrower little boxes as time went by, to the point where the Pope's physical property can be contained within a single city, and he has no official political power whatever outside it. The victory has been so complete that religious belief is now thought of as a small set of mostly irrelevant personal opinions which individuals choose to superimpose on a common secular worldview held by all. This picture is not totally accurate, but it's the consensus POV, and most of us see nothing strange about it.

To the extent that Islam has had a secular society, it has been achieved by copying Western norms in one way or another. As this copying took place while we were ascendant, and the Muslim world in decline, many Muslims see it as not only blasphemous but humiliating. Every now and then you hear some rube remarking that Islam "needs to have a Reformation." But that's a nonsensical concept. Outside of Iran (which is an aberration), Islam has never had a priestly hierarchy, and sola scriptura was its norm from the start. The call for an Islamic Reformation is a thinly-coded call for religion to become pleasantly irrelevant, and for the Islamic world to adopt Western secular liberal values.

More sensible people retort that Islam is indeed reforming, in that more and more people are calling for a return to the values of early Islam. Like our Reformation, this is likely to lead to an extended period of horrific violence. Unlike ours, it is unlikely to lead to secularism, since it began as a rebellion against it.

[Elok]

Jon Miller

[Ming]

Well, when I got married I was a feminist/communist. Not that it mattered.

Something mattered... since it didn't work out.

Your personal experience doesn't matter.

I'm still married... so it does matter. 30 years... how long did you last?

The divorce rate is 50%. There are a lot of reasons why people get divorced. You probably think it's because of male priviledge.

As usual, you just make **** up. I will say that one reason might be because the husband is an ass...

But your personal experience doesn't matter. So why don't you stop being a bully.

Gee, If I was a bully, I doubt my marriage would have lasted 30 years. My marriage hasn't failed like yours did. So I guess my experience does matter... while yours doesn't.

[rah]

I wish you and your brother understood statistics.

Actually that's part of my job at work. (market research) What are your credentials?

We both stated that we treated our wives as equals and that we're both still married. Maybe the two are related. Go figure.

Let us know after you've treated a wife as an equal and you been married for as long as we have.
(Somehow I doubt either will ever happen)

[rah]

JM