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  • What did I ever do to you?

    David


    One recent Sunday afternoon, amid the yellow dust, sunshine and traffic fumes of Accra, I met a man who told me that Colonel Gaddafi was the messiah.

    The man's name was Karim Mohamed, an ebullient 45-year-old tailor who had spent three years living and working in Libya before the fall of Gaddafi.

    He was married with three children, and lived in a six-bedroom house that he had built himself using the money he had earned in Libya.

    "In Libya, everybody was happy," he told me. "In America, there are people sleeping under bridges. In Libya, never. There was no discrimination, no problems, nothing. The work was good and so was the money. My life is all thanks to Gaddafi. He was the messiah of Africa."

    Karim was far from unusual in this part of Ghana. As we talked, two other men sauntered over to join the conversation, and turned out to share his passion for the late Libyan dictator.

    "Gaddafi was a nice guy," said Mustafa Abdel Momin, a cheerful, 35-year-old construction worker who had worked in Libya for seven years. "He never cheated anybody. He was perfect. The best."

    "What was the point of killing him?" added Eliyas Yahya, the local imam, who had a round hat, a pointed beard and a very loud voice. "You kill someone to solve the problem and now the problem is worse. Why kill Gaddafi?"
    .
    Amadu had been among those unable to afford a proper Libyan visa. In 2010, he and several friends made the dangerous journey there overland, through the Sahara desert. They ran out of water and many of his group died, but he made it to Libya and found work as a tiler.

    By the time war broke out in 2011, he had saved $3,500 (£2,300). He remembers standing on the docks in Tripoli when the first shots were fired, forcing him to run for cover. He was confined to his room for several days before he managed to escape back to Ghana, but he was unable to bring his hard-earned money with him. And that was how his dreams had died.

    "There is nothing for the youth here in Ghana," said Mustafa. "After Gaddafi, we are full of crisis. Youth unemployment is sky-high and there is nothing for us to do. Either we end up living a life of crime because it is the only way to make money, or we try and make it to Europe."

    The others agreed. "Now it is Europe, Europe, Europe, wherever on earth you go," said Eliyas loudly. "Some people are going to Brazil, if they can afford it. But for everyone else, it's Europe."

    Before Gaddafi was ousted, he officially warned the European Union that if his regime were to collapse, as many as two million migrants would arrive on Europe's shores, creating chaos.

    He may have been more a dictator than a messiah. But he seems to have been right about that.


    David proudly takes in 20k refugees over 5 years now, but has a moral duty to drop more bombs.

    What about taking in the slack... 2million? Perhaps split it into even 700k between France and US?

    21st century imperialists are worse than 19th century ones, as these ones **** it all up and leave the people to kill each other in the aftermath, add a few drone murders from far away for kicks.
    Socrates: "Good is That at which all things aim, If one knows what the good is, one will always do what is good." Brian: "Romanes eunt domus"
    GW 2013: "and juistin bieber is gay with me and we have 10 kids we live in u.s.a in the white house with obama"

  • #2
    also Libya in the news today... for those who are not bothered to read a snip is below
    Jihadism has a long history in Libya. Members of the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group staged an unsuccessful guerrilla rebellion against Gaddafi in the 1990s. That uprising was crushed, (edit:this is your "moderate" opposition in regular media) and its members fled to Afghanistan and Iraq. With the removal of Gaddafi in the bloody 2011 Arab Spring revolution, the jihadis came home.
    .
    In October, Wolfgang Pusztai, Austria’s former Libya defence attaché, told the British parliament’s foreign affairs committee: “The more Islamic State is put under pressure in the Middle East, the more active it will be in Libya.”

    Loudest of all has been France’s defence minister, Jean-Yves Le Drian, issuing periodic warnings that Libya has become the “hub” for Isis to supply terrorists and weapons to affiliated groups in Algeria and Mali and to Boko Haram in Nigeria.
    .
    One crumb of comfort for western planners is that Isis has yet to become a mass movement in Libya. In what is a tribal-based society, the population is largely immune to calls to join a worldwide caliphate. Set against that are the continuing arrival of foreign volunteers from Tunisia, Sudan and Yemen.

    As in Syria, only ground forces are likely to decisively crush Isis. Western diplomats, working out of Tunis, with Tripoli too dangerous, are continuing to try to persuade Libyans to unite against the terrorist threat. But the French jets and the US drones in the skies over Sirte are vivid proof that another narrative is taking shape.


    Ground war - the ones in Afghanistan and Iraq worked soooo well over last 12 years.
    Socrates: "Good is That at which all things aim, If one knows what the good is, one will always do what is good." Brian: "Romanes eunt domus"
    GW 2013: "and juistin bieber is gay with me and we have 10 kids we live in u.s.a in the white house with obama"

    Comment


    • #3
      Who is David?
      No, I did not steal that from somebody on Something Awful.

      Comment


      • #4
        If you're going to blame the current state of Libya on those who's influence created it, you have to put Gaddafi at the top of the list of modern actors. The (modern) West had relatively little to do with it. (19th Century colonialism was much, much worse, don't be ridiculous.)

        As you posted, Libya was a source of jihadis before Gaddafi was removed, his oppressive regime was forming them for export. Gaddafi himself directly funded terrorist groups. The civil war started under Gaddafi. If Gaddafi had been just slightly less of an idiotic madman (one or the other) he could have stayed in power oppressing his own people at least for a while longer. Pretending the country WHICH WAS IN A STATE OF CIVIL WAR UNDER A MADMAN DICTATOR was actually some utopia is beyond stupid. It was Gaddafi who chose to be a tyrant and destroy any chance for peace for his country.

        Comment


        • #5
          I would suggest you tell your country's government not to take in the illegal alien economic migrants because there are indeed safe UN camps in their region of origin where their basic needs will be met.

          Also, yes, the BBC recently had an article about people in Africa who mourn for Gaddafi because he used to let Africans work in Libya allowing them to save money they could use to buy a house when they went back home. His own people hated him as a dictator but a few did indeed see him as a savior.
          Last edited by Dinner; December 6, 2015, 11:01.
          Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by The Mad Monk View Post
            Who is David?
            British PM
            Socrates: "Good is That at which all things aim, If one knows what the good is, one will always do what is good." Brian: "Romanes eunt domus"
            GW 2013: "and juistin bieber is gay with me and we have 10 kids we live in u.s.a in the white house with obama"

            Comment


            • #7
              Ah, I thought it was a reference to the biblical David which wouldn't have made much sense because Gaddafi wasn't exactly a Goliath and the US/Britain weren't exactly using slings
              <p style="font-size:1024px">HTML is disabled in signatures </p>

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Aeson View Post
                If you're going to blame the current state of Libya on those who's influence created it, you have to put Gaddafi at the top of the list of modern actors. The (modern) West had relatively little to do with it. (19th Century colonialism was much, much worse, don't be ridiculous.)

                As you posted, Libya was a source of jihadis before Gaddafi was removed, his oppressive regime was forming them for export. Gaddafi himself directly funded terrorist groups. The civil war started under Gaddafi. If Gaddafi had been just slightly less of an idiotic madman (one or the other) he could have stayed in power oppressing his own people at least for a while longer. Pretending the country WHICH WAS IN A STATE OF CIVIL WAR UNDER A MADMAN DICTATOR was actually some utopia is beyond stupid. It was Gaddafi who chose to be a tyrant and destroy any chance for peace for his country.
                How did the Arab Spring in Libya actually start?

                Libyans about Gaddafi after his death:


                Money from Libya’s oil revenue is deposited into the bank account of every citizen.

                • He raised the literacy rate from 20 per cent to 83 per cent.

                • He built one of the finest health care systems in the “Third World.”

                All people have access to doctors, hospitals, clinics and medicines—free of charge. If a Libyan needs surgery that is unavailable in Libya, funding is provided for the surgery overseas.

                He raised the life expectancy from 44 to 75 years of age.

                • Basic food items were subsidized and electricity was made available throughout the country.

                • He developed huge irrigation projects in order to support a drive towards agricultural development and food self-sufficiency.

                • Recognizing that water, not oil, would be the scarcest resource of the future, Gaddafi initiated the construction of the Great Man Made River, which took years to complete.

                Referred to as a wonder of the modern world, this river pumps millions of gallons of water daily from the heart of the Sahara desert to the coast, where the land is suitable for agriculture.

                Any Libyan who wanted to become a farmer was and still is given free use of land, a house, farm equipment, livestock and seed.

                • Gaddafi vowed that his own parents, who lived in a tent in the desert, would not be housed untilevery Libyan was housed.

                He fulfilled that promise.

                • Under Gaddafi, Libya has now attained the highest standard of living in Africa.

                He gave women full access to education and employment, and he has enabled women to serve in the armed forces.



                Yes he did it himself. Naturally.

                If you think that there would have been even a rebellion, let a lone a successful one without the west financing ( and in the end with air support - ensuring the win) the "moderate" rebels, or seeing that the "moderate" rebels are actually islamic fundamentalist terrorists whose mostly secular Lybia was a prime target.

                What can I say, other than - propaganda works. (and not only on Oerdin)
                Socrates: "Good is That at which all things aim, If one knows what the good is, one will always do what is good." Brian: "Romanes eunt domus"
                GW 2013: "and juistin bieber is gay with me and we have 10 kids we live in u.s.a in the white house with obama"

                Comment


                • #9
                  It is kind of strange that he never promoted himself to general or field marshal or whatever
                  <p style="font-size:1024px">HTML is disabled in signatures </p>

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                  • #10
                    Oerdin - to add, half a million people flee the country after Gaddafi's ouster and you think they do not think of him as saviour?

                    I mean WTF?!?

                    Maybe not a saviour, but just a head of a state where they had work, children could go to school, women had rights, etc... Is that a saviour? I do not know, but it certainly was better than what they currently have in their homeland.
                    Socrates: "Good is That at which all things aim, If one knows what the good is, one will always do what is good." Brian: "Romanes eunt domus"
                    GW 2013: "and juistin bieber is gay with me and we have 10 kids we live in u.s.a in the white house with obama"

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by loinburger View Post
                      It is kind of strange that he never promoted himself to general or field marshal or whatever
                      "King of kings" was enough

                      Before being elected Chairman of the African Union (A.U.) in Ethiopia, more than 200 African kings and tribal leaders bestowed upon Gaddafi the title of Africa's "King of Kings" in support of his ambitious project to unify all African states similar to the United States of America.
                      Socrates: "Good is That at which all things aim, If one knows what the good is, one will always do what is good." Brian: "Romanes eunt domus"
                      GW 2013: "and juistin bieber is gay with me and we have 10 kids we live in u.s.a in the white house with obama"

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Aeson View Post
                        If you're going to blame the current state of Libya on those who's influence created it, you have to put Gaddafi at the top of the list of modern actors. The (modern) West had relatively little to do with it. (19th Century colonialism was much, much worse, don't be ridiculous.).
                        In 19th century, they were present on the ground and were trying to "develop" those colonies in whatever misguided way they thought was appropriate.

                        Where did we get involved in 21st century?

                        Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria... and look at them now, while we cannot measure "pound for pound", it is certainly coceivable that they were not in such dire straits in 19th century either. Their tribal societies under imperialist rule (Ottoman mostly), while not peak of human development, were still stable and you did not have wholesale slaughter that you have today in those countries which the west "touched" with it's mighty bombs during the last decade and a half.

                        Where we get involved rivers of blood flow.
                        Socrates: "Good is That at which all things aim, If one knows what the good is, one will always do what is good." Brian: "Romanes eunt domus"
                        GW 2013: "and juistin bieber is gay with me and we have 10 kids we live in u.s.a in the white house with obama"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          What did I ever do to you?



                          .
                          No, I did not steal that from somebody on Something Awful.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Yes... and this excuses the destruction of a society, handing it over to Islamic Fundamentalists, 30 years after?

                            How?
                            Socrates: "Good is That at which all things aim, If one knows what the good is, one will always do what is good." Brian: "Romanes eunt domus"
                            GW 2013: "and juistin bieber is gay with me and we have 10 kids we live in u.s.a in the white house with obama"

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              "Ever" has no time constraints.
                              No, I did not steal that from somebody on Something Awful.

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