Socialism is the Future

[NICE MOBIUS]

So, on both sides of the pond we have insurgent leadership campaigns by Socialist politicians.

In the US we have Bernie Sanders, who might just derail Hilary Clinton's bid for the Democratic nomination; and in the UK we have Jeremy Corbyn's bid to become the leader of the Labour, where he is currently odds on favourite to become its leader...

In both countries, people who have previously never voted or have turned their back on politics have been galvanised by these campaigns.

In the UK, certainly, I see JC running a hugely populist campaign appealing to the downtrodden and disenfranchised in the face of a very nasty Conservative government that was elected by less than 25% of the electorate, and that has dropped all pretence that it is anything other than a party for the rich at the expense of the poor and vulnerable...

In the US, we've already had Barack Obama, who I think represents the start of this movement towards the left despite huge resistance from the Republicans in government. He has shown the people that it is possible to buck the establishment, so why not Bernie Sanders?

We still live in democracies in the UK and the US, even if they are broken and barely functioning parodies of the meaning of the word. The will of the people can still effect change, provided it has a focus on which to concentrate. Could this be the start of a very serious shift in politics on both sides of the Atlantic?

"Power to the People!" Wolfie Smith

Discuss!

[kentonio]

More of a re-adjustment than a shift. Politics always leans back to the centre over time, and we've gone through a fairly long period of a rightward swing. I think you're right that Obama was the first major sign of people wanting to move the dialogue back to the left, but that was a failure realistically. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Corbyn won in the UK. I would be more surprised if Sanders got the nomination, but if he did then yeah maybe there too.

People are being pushed down too hard, and the information that came out about the global collapse was just too much of a peek behind the Wizard of Oz's screen. Personal debt is sky-rocketing and there's always a limit to how much **** people will eat before they just say enough.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Socialism: a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

If this is the definition, neither Bernie or Jeremy are socialist.

[NICE MOBIUS]

More of a re-adjustment than a shift. Politics always leans back to the centre over time, and we've gone through a fairly long period of a rightward swing. I think you're right that Obama was the first major sign of people wanting to move the dialogue back to the left, but that was a failure realistically. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Corbyn won in the UK. I would be more surprised if Sanders got the nomination, but if he did then yeah maybe there too.

People are being pushed down too hard, and the information that came out about the global collapse was just too much of a peek behind the Wizard of Oz's screen. Personal debt is sky-rocketing and there's always a limit to how much **** people will eat before they just say enough.

For once I am pretty much in complete agreement. I think that the UK is ready for what Corbyn is advocating. I certainly don't think what he is standing for is 'old-fashioned' and agree with a lot of what he is suggesting. Crucially, there is very little that I really take issue with, and I don't even regard myself as particularly left-wing.

And I wouldn't be so sure about Sanders. Remember how Obama came from nowhere? People can see that it can happen now, and the tools such as social media etc, are far more pervasive in society - especially when Clinton has hardly covered herself in glory lately as the heir apparent.

Certainly what we currently have isn't working for the average person in the street and frankly all pretence about what this current flavour of Conservative government stands for, fell away the instant they got themselves a majority in parliament...

I, for one, welcome Comrade Corbyn

[NICE MOBIUS]

Socialism: a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

If this is the definition, neither Bernie or Jeremy are socialist.

Well yes, but to the average layman in the US and UK, we're talking one step from Communism.

[kentonio]

For once I am pretty much in complete agreement. I think that the UK is ready for what Corbyn is advocating. I certainly don't think what he is standing for is 'old-fashioned' and agree with a lot of what he is suggesting. Crucially, there is very little that I really take issue with, and I don't even regard myself as particularly left-wing.

The problem with Corbyn is that he actually is very old fashioned left wing. I'd have voted for him on his economic stuff because I think we need a major re-alignment but his position on Trident immediately rules out any possibility of me voting for him. That's the kind of crap that will prevent an awful lot of people from giving him their vote also.

I had a bit of a rant on FB about it a few days ago, right now we need targeted radicalism, not just someone who will provide radical solutions to a huge swathe of things. If someone tried to completely remake our entire society they will fail, because most of us actually like quite a lot of our society. Concentrate on the economy and we might actually get somewhere.

[C0ckney]

i think ken makes some good points but, certainly in europe, this needs to be seen in the context of a broader crisis of social democracy and the centre-left parties. these parties have accepted capitalism, while the conservative parties have accepted social liberalism on matters like women's equality, gay rights, etc.. this has left the centre-left and centre-right parties with very little to separate them, and a large number of politicians who could just as easily be in any of the main parties.

when the crisis hit, the centre-left parties, having accepted the centre-right's economic narrative, found themselves completely unable to offer a coherent critique of the crisis, never mind any solutions to it; having nothing distinctive to say about the economy, what they had to say about other issues surrounding globalisation sounded shallow and opportunistic, mostly because it was. so the traditional social democratic parties, while they 'fight' over the 'centre ground' created largely by right-wing forces, have been under attack from the left, from parties who reject the capitalist narrative, and also from the new-right/far-right, whose parties reject the consensus on globalisation and especially on immigration. as a result the traditional parties are facing problems across europe; and lacking any clear vision and, in many cases, anything to say at all, these problems are likely to get worse.

i'd like to think that some more canny labour members have seen that a corbyn win is the best chance for the party to avoid being PASOKED, but given the amount of desperate(ly amusing) nonsense written by labour grandees over the last few weeks, i have my doubts.

[Bereta_Eder]

Well I don't know if it's the future but it's quite apparent that something in the current system doesn't work and that more authoritarian politics are meeting very strong resistance because they are failing.
Some more wealth redistribution and definitely an assertion of political power over markets (like it wasl always supposed to be) will be welcome and there are parties that can achieve that.

I'm saddened that sometimes these parties will have to lie to get in power (sometimes it's not even conscious I think) but the worse thing for any society to find itself in, is a will of large amount of people without a way to follow it politically.

The will of the people is like a baby elephant. He's been chained all its life. When it tried to break the chain, it couldn't when it was little. now that it is 10 tons it still think it can't. But it can.
At a certain point in time the people realize that and seek alternative ways of political expression that eventually take power.

[kentonio]

i'd like to think that some more canny labour members have seen that a corbyn win is the best chance for the party to avoid being PASOKED, but given the amount of desperate(ly amusing) nonsense written by labour grandees over the last few weeks, i have my doubts.

The arrogance radiating off them at the moment is just stunning. When they started talking openly about how quickly they could throw him out of the leadership if the membership were stupid enough to elect him, I started wondering if the Tories had been putting something in the water at Labour HQ.

[kentonio]

The will of the people is like a baby elephant. He's been chained all its life. When it tried to break the chain, it couldn't when it was little. now that it is 10 tons it still think it can't. But it can.
At a certain point in time the people realize that and seek alternative ways of political expression that eventually take power.

There's never been a time when the will of the masses isn't powerful enough to overthrow political leaders. The question has always been whether people are willing to accept the price of doing so, which in this case could be a huge economic collapse while the system is being restructured.

[C0ckney]

Socialism: a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

If this is the definition, neither Bernie or Jeremy are socialist.

well that's the thing isn't it. corbyn is suggesting a lot of stuff that wouldn't be out of place in a continental social democratic programme, as well as making some more radical noises. however the media are likely to portray nationalising the railways and a modest increase on the higher rate of income tax as stalinist.

this kind of attack was made against miliband who, when giving off the merest hint of social democracy, was denounced as 'red ed' and then spent years being careful not to say anything too lefty. but what is interesting is what will happen when these kind of attacks are made against someone who, upon being called a socialist, will say ' yes, i am a socialist. now let's talk about why socialism is best for britain'.

[Bereta_Eder]

Is "PASOKED" a reference to the greek party "PASOK"? if not it's quite a coincidence

[kentonio]

but what is interesting is what will happen when these kind of attacks are made against someone who, upon being called a socialist, will say ' yes, i am a socialist. now let's talk about why socialism is best for britain'.

Which is what Sanders is doing in the US at the moment, and it's going pretty well to be fair.

[C0ckney]

The arrogance radiating off them at the moment is just stunning. When they started talking openly about how quickly they could throw him out of the leadership if the membership were stupid enough to elect him, I started wondering if the Tories had been putting something in the water at Labour HQ.

yes the contrast between the warnings that electing corbyn will destroy the labour party, and actually threatening to destroy the labour party if he's elected, has amused me greatly; the calls from the likes of john mann and simon danczuk to call off the election because someone they don't approve of might win it, even more so.

[C0ckney]

Is "PASOKED" a reference to the greek party "PASOK"? if not it's quite a coincidence