[civil] "Greece moves closer to eurozone exit after delaying €300m repayment to IMF "

[OneFootInTheGrave]

I´d assume that the belgian state has more control about its regions, than the EU has on Greece ... which IMHO is the big problem.

Which IMHO is a problem.

I understand, that Syriza only are in power in greece since 6 months and therefore weren´t able to work miracles after the gross mismanagement that took place during the previous greek governments.
The big problem however IMHO is, that the current greece government doesn´t even present any long term plans of their own on how to combat the problems of the greek state. I am sure that, if Varoufakis (when he still was minister) had come to the gatherings with any sound (and halfway detailed) plans for the nex years (ideally with prognostics about the development of income/expenses during this time) instead of coming with empty hands and just calling his colleagues terrorists, he (and his government) would have been taken more seriously

Well you can read an abbreviated version here, but to say that Greece has not come up with a plan is incorrect.

also to copy and paste a part for most others who will find it TLDR...

So, the first part of Dr Blanchard’s question “how much of an adjustment has to be made by Greece?” needs to be answered: Greece needs a great deal of adjustment. But not of the same kind that we have had in the past. We need more reforms not more cutbacks. For instance,

We need to adjust to a new culture of paying taxes, not to higher VAT rates that strengthen the incentive to cheat and drive law-abiding citizens into greater poverty
We need to make the pension system sustainable by eradicating unpaid labour, minimising early retirements, eliminating pension fund fraud, boosting employment – not by eradicating the solidarity tranche from the lowest of the low of pensions, as the institutions have demanded, thus pushing the poorest of the poor into greater poverty and conjuring up massive popular hostility against another set of so called reforms

In our proposals to the institutions we have offered:

An extensive (but optimised) privatisation agenda spanning the period 2015-2025
The creation of a fully independent Tax and Customs Authority (under the aegis and supervision of Parliament)
A Fiscal Council that oversees the state budget
A short-term program for limiting foreclosures and managing non-performing loans
Judicial and civil procedure code reforms
Liberalising several product markets and services (with protections for middle class values and professions that are part and parcel of society’s fabric)
Elimination of many nuisance charges
Public administration reforms (introducing proper staff evaluation systems, reducing non-wage costs, modernising and unifying public sector payrolls).

In addition to these reforms the Greek Authorities have engaged the Organisation of Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) to help Athens design, implement and monitor a second series of reforms. Yesterday I met with the OECD’s Secretary General Mr Angel Gurria and his team to announce this joint reform agenda, complete with a specific roadmap:

A major Anti-corruption Drive and relevant institutions to support it – especially in the area of procurement
Liberalising the construction sector, including the market and standards of construction materials
Wholesale trade liberalisation
Media – electronic and press code of practice
One-Stop Business Centres that eradicate the bureaucratic impediments to doing business in Greece
Pension System Reform – where the emphasis is on a proper, long-term, actuarial study, the phasing out of early retirements, the reduction in the operating costs of the pensions funds, pension fund consolidation – rather than mere pension cuts.

Yes, colleagues, Greeks need to adjust further. We desperately need deep reforms. But, I urge you to take seriously under consideration this important difference between:

reforms that attack parasitic, rent-seeking behaviour or inefficiencies, and
parametric changes that jack up tax rates and reduce benefits to the weakest.

We need a lot more of the real reforms and a lot less of the parametric type

[Dinner]

Iceland did it spectacularly well, Argentina managed OK (much better than Greece did in EU, 5 years out), I am looking forward to see how Greeks manage it.

In Iceland the debts belonged to private banks which went bust not to the central government. Argentina is still a basket case and having legal problems in the US with courts ordering assets seized to make good on bonds they had defaulted on.

Greece would have an even harder time as its EU money can be seized. What if road or crop subsidies were seized to repay bond holders?

[N35t0r]

[Dinner]

I was specifically speaking about the court case in the US and how, when they tried to make a payment on their new debt, the court seized the money to make them pay on their old debt. Which caused a technical default.

[Dinner]

http://www.newsweek.com/german-missiles-hacked-foreign-source-351433

A German Army missile battery on the Turkish Syrian border has been hacked. Reportedly, the hackers could have taken control of the system and caused it to either fail to operate or even fire at the wrong target. The German army is saying there are only a handful of countries with such technical ability (Russia, China, US, UK, Israel, or maybe Iran). The German government is refusing to say who they suspect but suspension naturally falls on Russia as the most likely candidate.

[pchang]

Some of you are being pretty cavalier with Proteus’ Dannubis’, Saras’, et. al.’s money. In a real currency union like the United States, California does not complain about subsidizing Mississippi because both have agreed to abide by common Federal standards for taxation, laws, regulations and enforcement mechanisms. In addition to austerity, the Greeks were asked to implement structural reforms, but that has not happened. In conjunction with the OECD, the IMF had asked Greece to implement changes to hundreds of laws and regulations.

In the World Bank ease of doing business rankings, Greece ranks 31/31 among the OECD high income countries. In other words, Greece ranks dead last. http://www.doingbusiness.org/rankings

Starting a Business - 20/31
Dealing with Construction Permits - 21/31
Getting Electricity - 24/31
Registering Property - 27/31
Getting Credit - 22/31
Protecting Minority Investors - 24/31
Paying Taxes - 19/31
Trading Across Borders - 27/31
Enforcing Contracts - 31/31
Resolving Insolvency - 29/31

There are many very rich Greeks who have started very successful business in the US (5/31), UK (6/31), and Australia (8/31). Perhaps if Greece ranked at least 16/31 in all of those categories there would have been new growth in the private sector to make up for the austerity in the public sector.

[pchang]

Iceland did it spectacularly well, Argentina managed OK (much better than Greece did in EU, 5 years out), I am looking forward to see how Greeks manage it.

Greece is not Argentina. http://fortune.com/2011/06/28/why-gr...not-argentina/

There is no China led commodity boom to help Greece and Greece doesn't even produce the commodities that led to Argentina's growth.

[C0ckney]

i think you'll find that it was european governments that were cavalier with taxpayer's money when they used it to bail out the banks instead of letting them sink into the mire of their irresponsible lending. now the blame is being laid upon greece, and more specifically the greeks, for a craven and wrong headed decision made at the european level.

[Dinner]

Banking is a catch-22. The main reason for the great depression was the failure of the banks and the resulting contraction of the money supply. Sure, the gold standard didn't help as it effectively kept currencies pegged but bank failures were the main reason.

[C0ckney]

Good luck restructuring without a functioning banking sector.

i'm not at all sure whether this is true (not for everything that banks do, but rather that those things be done by banks), but even if we accept it for the sake of argument, we can say that most banking activities not only fail to contribute to a decent society, but are actually deleterious to one.

[C0ckney]

Banking is a catch-22. The main reason for the great depression was the failure of the banks and the resulting contraction of the money supply. Sure, the gold standard didn't help as it effectively kept currencies pegged but bank failures were the main reason.

money creation can be done in diverse ways, from privately by individual citizens right up to directly by the state.

[Main_Brain]

i think you'll find that it was european governments that were cavalier with taxpayer's money when they used it to bail out the banks instead of letting them sink into the mire of their irresponsible lending. now the blame is being laid upon greece, and more specifically the greeks, for a craven and wrong headed decision made at the european level.

Following the post-Lehman shock the Decision was understandable even if we don't agree with it.

[Dinner]

money creation can be done in diverse ways, from privately by individual citizens right up to directly by the state.

Yeah, try to do fractional reserve banking as a private citizen. Also when you admit you aren't sure if a modern economy needs functional banks all that says is you have no idea how economies work at even the most basic level. That kind of explains how you can be so completely wrong about Greece.

[C0ckney]

Following the post-Lehman shock the Decision was understandable even if we don't agree with it.

sure. i'm not saying that it was incomprehensible, but rather that it was wrong.

[C0ckney]

Yeah, try to do fractional reserve banking as a private citizen. Also when you admit you aren't sure if a modern economy needs functional banks all that says is you have no idea how economies work at even the most basic level. That kind of explains how you can be so completely wrong about Greece.

you don't appear to have understood what i said. some banking functions are indeed important, but whether it is necessary that they be performed by banks, and more specifically banks as they are currently set up, is what i question. but in any case, we discussed this at length in the full reserve banking thread, where your ignorance was once again cruelly exposed for all to see.