[civil] "Greece moves closer to eurozone exit after delaying €300m repayment to IMF "

[Dinner]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33934238

Well, the third bailout has been agreed with much tougher but badly needed reforms being required before money is given plus there will be a Euro 35 billion economic stimulus package (a grant not a loan) and if Greece faithful impliments the reforms there is even a meeting scheduled for next autumn to write down Greek debts. If the Greeks do what they did the first two times and refuse to reform and privitize then there will be no debt relief.

All in all fair, expensive and shouldn't have been needed, but fair given how obstinate the Greeks have been about reforming until now. I think reality has finally hit them out of their denial.

[Dinner]

There are still the political organizational and accountability problems which Paiktis spoke about but those aren't part of the reform requirements of the bailout. Hopefully, the Greeks decide to make those reforms on their own as their PM is currently talking about them. Fast is better than slow as they have already dragged it out for half a decade and it is better to get the pain over with instead of dragging it out. Get the pain over and get the economic healing started.

[Bereta_Eder]

Due to limited time I will not make oerdino overventilate.

But couple of things.

I disagree that the package is harsher than the one before.

It's time to eat his words (they won't bloat him) about radicals/stupids etc

He doesn't know greek reality so he doesn't know that there has been a systemic shift here created by godamnmother****ing syriza.

There isn't any more pain to the ones that don't deserve it. (compared to what it could have been)

There is a world of pain for the have ones.

[Bereta_Eder]

And syriza still doesn't wear a tie.
It will wear it when what it has promised through its struggles will be delivered. Debt restructuring. (as promised by tsipras. both the tie and the debt restructuring)

[Bereta_Eder]

And since I am in a good mood and the far right wing leadership of the conservatives has been also eradicated and a more moderate/ sane leadership has taken the helm, even if they suck, even if they smell of blueberries they can, under conditions, even enter the coalition IMO.

Oh. And as always. This is a democracy.

The syriza rebels are fully entitled to form their own party if they so wish. If they feel betrayed or if they feel they are in a position to assist the people of this land better.

[pchang]

Germany is also a democracy. I don't understand why people don't seem to be willing to acknowledge that what Schauble and Merkel are doing represents what the German people want.

[Bereta_Eder]

Noone is questioning that. Assuming of course that you think that people are an amalgam.

[Bereta_Eder]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33934238

Well, the third bailout has been agreed with much tougher but badly needed reforms being required before money is given plus there will be a Euro 35 billion economic stimulus package (a grant not a loan) and if Greece faithful impliments the reforms there is even a meeting scheduled for next autumn to write down Greek debts. If the Greeks do what they did the first two times and refuse to reform and privitize then there will be no debt relief.

I think I said long before the ****storm hit the fan (it must be burried in these pages somewhere) that a new deal will be formed that will be the same as before and will simply kick the can down the road as happened before untill the eurozone is toast.

Many things happened but can you tell me I'm wrong?

Now society is the last judge of anything.

I don't agree with a glorious burn out but I doubt people will accept a miserable fade away either.

If by reality hit you mean that we are surrounded with dangerous people and each indivindual must now carefully manage his assets because the only thing that stopped a euroexit was the fear of loosing deposits, then I agree.

There is another small thing.

The party that will inevitably be formed and will be a euroexit party needs to convince the people that it's not a "commie" in disguise party that will lead to loss of freedom.

But as the french have said "what freedom is there in poverty?"

It will be helpful though as a gauge, a measurement of how close this society is ready to leave the euro, and how much preparation has been done.

I wishi I could say that the euro is not doomed but I still think it is and as long as the german neoliberalis model, an extremely right wing ideology is casting its shadow on europe, the danger will be there. Or maybe it's the eurosystem.

What reality has hit the people are that those responsible (from all sides) are deranged and they better protect their property.

Noone is totally convinced this deal will work.
But is convinced that for the time being it has to be done.

But, to be fair, there are a bazzilion of people (myself included) that believe that there is a lot of road for sensible reforms to be made. And I doubt that any ordinary person would have obsections to that.

However, as ever, reality will be the judge of everything.

If a debt reduction, as I long have said that is necessairy and I am again vindicated in that, does not take place, I think the next syriza will be much more, let's say, competent towards that goal.


The pain that has already been endured by the ordinary people is not because of a lack of reforms, as said. It's because we participate in the eurozone.

[Bereta_Eder]

And I leave you with a quote from a poet

If you deconstruct Greece, you will in the end see an olive tree, a grapevine, and a boat remain. That is, with as much, you reconstruct her.

Odysseas Elytis


I don't want for that line to be realized but, it remains true.

[pchang]

Debt reduction will not happen without German support. I believe that if progress is made on curbing corruption, the German populace can be convinced to support debt reduction.

[Bereta_Eder]

Actually the debt reduction thing got back on the table with such urgency by the IMF, after syriza decided to simply not pay it.

And the german "populace" is decidely convinced that there will be no reforms done by the greeks.
Its gov. will sign the bailout on wednsday.

I wish things were as simple as you said. Then it would be smashing.

I'm glad though that you acknowledge that this is a political decision.

Indeed it is, there is nothing in the treaties that explicitely forbits its. Schauble just makes **** up as he goes along. (probably got that when he embezzeled millions for his party)

As for a rather disquetening influence of germany on european affairs, prodi wrote something about it.

[Bereta_Eder]

After much drama, a third bailout has been announced for Greece and approved by the Greek parliament. The details have yet to be settled, but whatever deal finally emerges Greece's government will be compelled to impose more spending cuts and tax rises at a time when unemployment is already higher than it was in America during the Great Depression. The result will be to lock Greece into permanent poverty, while the burden of debt will never be paid off.

Greece has been forced to submit to another round of destructive and self-defeating austerity policies in order to save the euro. But the euro is weaker than it was before the deal, and many are beginning to consider what for respectable opinion has until now been a forbidden thought: the euro project may have been a colossal error. Instead of leaving it stronger, the deal that has been imposed has strengthened the suspicion that the single currency is irreparably flawed.

It seems a strange outcome for a deal reached among reasonable men and women. But was the deal a result of rational bargaining? If you listened to the media on the negotiations in Brussels, you'd be inclined to think so. There has been constant talk of stratagems and counter-stratagems, bluffs and double bluffs. The Greek drama has been interpreted as a high-stakes poker game, with each of the players trying to maximise their chance of winning.


It's an interpretation that's been all the more popular as a result of the fact that one of the players, Greece's former finance minister Yanis Varoufakis, has written an academic textbook on game theory. A familiar line of commentary has it that the Syriza government destroyed any credibility it may have had among European elites by reckless shifts in strategy. If only the Greeks had played their hand more shrewdly, a better deal could have been reached and the crisis could have been resolved. The eurozone could then become more integrated and more stable.

I think it's an unrealistic analysis. Unworkable and unreformable, the euro can only produce recurrent and worsening crises. But this can go on for only so long. The euro will break down through a process of political contagion, as resurgent nationalism and radical parties of opposition become stronger throughout Europe. The driving force of the currency's disintegration will be a mood of popular anger. Attempting to maintain the euro at any cost can only result in mounting desperation, which will seek expression in violence if no practicable policies are on offer to ameliorate the situation.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-33863913

The euro as it currently stands is destined to die.


Greece was much happier. healthier, vibrant, growing and kicking ass before it joined. The same for quite a few of the otherpeoples in Europe.

Then someone had an idea.

[Bereta_Eder]

As to why pchang you are always listening about problems in the democratic functioning of a country inside the euro,

this article will illuminate you.

(it's ok that I have dirtied my hands with the telegraph and that ideologically I have nothing in common with that preachards guy, but he's saying it like it is)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11736779/Greece-is-being-treated-like-a-hostile-occupied-state.html

[Bereta_Eder]

As to how med countries were doing just fine before the euro, it's here (but in french)

http://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/2015/05/STREECK/52917

Schématiquement, les pays de la Méditerranée ont développé un modèle de capitalisme dans lequel la croissance repose avant tout sur la demande intérieure. Si nécessaire, on la stimulera grâce à une inflation alimentée par les déficits publics et par de puissants syndicats garants de la sécurité de l’emploi, surtout dans le secteur public. L’inflation permet aux Etats d’emprunter plus facilement tout en dévaluant leur dette. Ces pays possèdent en outre un système bancaire public ou semi-public fortement régulé. Tous ces éléments combinés assurent en théorie une harmonie relative entre les intérêts des travailleurs et ceux des employeurs, en particulier dans les petites entreprises qui vendent leurs produits sur le marché intérieur. Mais la paix sociale a pour contrepartie un déficit de compétitivité sur le plan international, déficit qu’il faut compenser de temps à autre en dévaluant la monnaie nationale, au détriment des exportateurs étrangers. Cette politique a bien sûr pour condition la souveraineté monétaire.










And as to why the debt restructuring is scheduled for october is so that schauble will try to protect rahoi in the spanish elections after having failed to impose the bridge loan instead of the full 3rd package in the eurogroup and after having his arm twisted by lagarde who desperately wants another 5 years in office.

Meanwhile, the delusionists can say we are borrowing money with 1% and we should be lucky.

Sure.

(I still think that there are reforms that should have been done 40 years ago!! but that has absolteuly nothing to do with the "Rescue" package)

But the euro as it stands now, inside the straightjacket of a paranoid germany is going to die. And it's going to take Greece with it first, nomatter if a debt restructuring is going to postpone the inevitable)



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and as always the other side (which I'm more and more convinced is from sumnabulists - google translate)

They lend 86 billion euros to 32.5 years at 1% interest, ensure our stay in the euro and Europe, we impose reforms that abolish the privileges of various minorities and closed club (public employees, early retirees, farmakoipoion, bakers, symvoaliografon, bailiffs, lawyers, truckers, farmers, etc.), pass laws to depoliticize government (ie the exemption of the partisan armies, their "buddies" and pelateakes relations), strengthen independent institutions and fortify democracy, receive systems and specialists to tackle tax evasion. These provide us with the Memorandum.

For our part, the government (representing a total belief of the political world, ie all parties), it adds to the Memorandum huge and unjust taxes in order to avoid as it can cost cutting measures in the public and maintain as it can privileges and seats for ours.

That is because Europeans require surpluses and Greek politicians do not want anything to reduce public spending or to raise their own, exaggerated taxes come in all income and deductions at all. These measures, taxes and income reductions, are unjustly and horizontal measures preferred by Greek politicians to avoid reforms. And because they avoid them systematically, the account is continuously growing for taxpayers.

This is the memorandum. A package containing very serious reforms imposed by Europe by force, and income taxes and reductions applied due to the inability of our policies.

We, of course, complain. We hear every single politicians not want the memorandum, to vote (those who vote) with a heavy heart, some say that it will not apply and others, known extreme Lafazani- Life - Golden Dawn, insist that there is "golden prospect" the Drachma and international isolation. Nonsense that is theoretically supported by anekdiigito Varoufakis (which is expected after the holidays to make by jumping to the outside to follow "international career paparologias" and set in a university tritoklassato US or Latin America headquarters Global Paparology).

And because all politicians "leaders" grumble, the people are not happy with the Memorandum.

Of course, if we were to ask a laminated referendums all Greeks on one by one all the measures of the Memorandum (minus taxes and income reductions) if they want, everyone will vote yes, except those who lose privileges. If we were running referendums laminated with various questions such as: Do you want to abolish the privileges of pharmacists? or want to abolish the privileges of truckers? or want to abolish the privileges of civil servants? or want to delete the partisan appointments to the Public? and stuff like that, would come Yes with over 90% in all these polls. But if you want a referendum and tell us the memorandum impose foreigners? will tell people no, they said and spurious referendum while ago. And of course, the not read as yes, because otherwise it will lead to the destruction of the country.

Anyway, the Memorandum bases placed to become European states, the application will be difficult, the political system hinders progress and makes seducing the people to survive. And it will be destroyed entirely and I hope that it will build a new, more sincere.

There overcame all problems, delays may occur - again by politicians and their nonsense - but money will not see until the implementation of the terms of the Memorandum. And applied for if not applied will literally bankrupt and leave home anyhow from Europe before eventually disappear as a state and the map. The faster implementation of reforms and manage to reduce tax evasion, the faster we recover

[pchang]

The Euro was always going to fail because you cannot have true monetary union without a real political union. Europe is not ready for a Confederation, let alone a Federal States of Europe.