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Why does BK keep mentioning Descartes?
Irrelevant nonsense.
Irrelevant nonsense.
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To us, it is the BEAST. -
I don't know, but if he's using Descartes to talk about anything other than methodological skepticism or analytic geometry, he's probably wrong.Originally posted by Sava View PostClick here if you're having trouble sleeping.
"We confess our little faults to persuade people that we have no large ones." - François de La RochefoucauldComment
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Probably? The awards have already been proclaimed.Originally posted by Lorizael View PostI drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
- Justice Brett KavanaughComment
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Yes it is... They were influenced by pagans all around them, not just the Sumerians. Hell, long before the Babylonian captivity Abraham was a wealthy merchant in Ur when it was the capital of Sumer's 3rd dynasty. Upon entering the promised land Joshua tells the Israelites about the ancient times when their fathers (Abraham and his fathers) lived in the land of the 2 rivers and served other gods. Thats where the Bible's really old stories come from, Sumer.Originally posted by Kidicious View Post
Notice that while it is claimed the trinity was not Jewish and not in the Bible, the Sumerian triad has a heavenly Father, a "wind" god, and a god of the waters. Thats in Genesis, God, his spirit or wind, and the primordial waters.The historian S. H. Hooke tells in detail of the ancient Sumerian trinity: Anu was the primary god of heaven, the ‘Father’, and the ‘King of the Gods’; Enlil, the ‘wind-god’ was the god of the earth, and a creator god; and Enki was the god of waters and the ‘lord of wisdom’ (15-18). The historian, H. W. F. Saggs, explains that the Babylonian triad consisted of ‘three gods of roughly equal rank... whose inter-relationship is of the essence of their natures’ (316).
Is this positive proof that the Christian Trinity descended from the ancient Sumerian, Assyrian, and Babylonian triads? No. However, Hislop furthers the comparison, ‘In the unity of that one, Only God of the Babylonians there were three persons, and to symbolize [sic] that doctrine of the Trinity, they employed... the equilateral triangle, just as it is well known the Romish Church does at this day’ (16).
Egypt’s history is similar to Sumeria’s in antiquity. In his Egyptian Myths, George Hart, lecturer for the British Museum and professor of ancient Egyptian heiroglyphics at the University of London, shows how Egypt also believed in a ‘transcendental, above creation, and preexisting’ one, the god Amun. Amun was really three gods in one. Re was his face, Ptah his body, and Amun his hidden identity (24). The well-known historian Will Durant concurs that Ra, Amon, and Ptah were ‘combined as three embodiments or aspects of one supreme and triune deity’ (Oriental Heritage 201). Additionally, a hymn to Amun written in the 14th century BC defines the Egyptian trinity: ‘All Gods are three: Amun, Re, Ptah; they have no equal. His name is hidden as Amun, he is Re... before [men], and his body is Ptah’ (Hornung 219).
Is this positive proof that the Christian Trinity descended from the ancient Egyptian triads? No. However, Durant submits that ‘from Egypt came the ideas of a divine trinity...’ (Caesar 595). Dr. Gordon Laing, retired Dean of the Humanities Department at the University of Chicago, agrees that ‘the worship of the Egyptian triad Isis, Serapis, and the child Horus’ probably accustomed the early church theologians to the idea of a triune God, and was influential ‘in the formulation of the doctrine of the Trinity as set forth in the Nicaean and Athanasian creeds’ (128-129).
These were not the only trinities early Christians were exposed to. The historical lecturer, Jesse Benedict Carter, tells us of the Etruscans. As they slowly passed from Babylon through Greece and went on to Rome (16-19), they brought with them their trinity of Tinia, Uni, and Menerva. This trinity was a ‘new idea to the Romans,’ and yet it became so ‘typical of Rome’ that it quickly spread throughout Italy (26). Even the names of the Roman trinity: Jupiter, Juno, and Minerva, reflect the ancestry. That Christianity was not ashamed to borrow from pagan culture is amply shown by Durant: ‘Christianity did not destroy paganism; it adopted it’ (Caesar 595).Comment
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The main issue that I have is that since they were captives in Babylon they didn't have a culture of their own. When they were freed they had to reinterpret the scriptures. So in order for your theory to be true the doctrine would have to be interpret able from the scriptures, and I maintain that it is not.Originally posted by Berzerker View Post
Another issue is that those Sumerian gods had conflicts with each other, right? That is not trinity oneness.I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
- Justice Brett KavanaughComment
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They were monotheists, in their time (and for millennia before them) the trinity was the product of paganism. Even the brief Egyptian flirtation with monotheism combined the trinity into 1 god. The Jews made a cleaner break from the pagan trinity but it still shows up in Genesis and in various tales. As for conflicts within the trinity, these appear in the Bible too. God sends the Flood to wipe out people but saves people from the Flood. In the Sumerian myth its the sky/wind god Enlil who wants the Flood to destroy the pesky humans while Enki the serpent/water god saves people by warning the Sumerian Noah. The biblical authors either ignored the other members of the trinity or disguised them as "angels" or a talking snake. "Let us make man in our image" was a request made to other gods, including the trinity in charge of making such decisions. By the time of Christianity the trinity was extremely old and the tales of their exploits were either lost or confused allowing for a "oneness" based on the message of Jesus. Remember what Joshua told the Israelites, our fathers served other gods in the land of the 2 rivers.Originally posted by Kidicious View PostComment
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While you have a point that it says in Genesis, "Let us make man in our own image," There's no evidence that they interpreted that to mean that God is more than one person. The Spirit of God is simply wind. The Messiah was expected to be a King in the line of David, not God.I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
- Justice Brett KavanaughComment
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If the Pagan Son God Constantine had not approved of it we wouldn't be having this discussion.I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
- Justice Brett KavanaughComment
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you say there's no evidence, who else shared God's image if not other gods?Originally posted by Kidicious View Post
God is plural in that verseComment
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Be careful about relying on English translations of Ancient Hebrew.“It is no use trying to 'see through' first principles. If you see through everything, then everything is transparent. But a wholly transparent world is an invisible world. To 'see through' all things is the same as not to see.”
― C.S. Lewis, The Abolition of ManComment
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are you saying the "us" in let us make man in our image actually means let me make man in my image?Comment
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No. I'm saying we don't really know.“It is no use trying to 'see through' first principles. If you see through everything, then everything is transparent. But a wholly transparent world is an invisible world. To 'see through' all things is the same as not to see.”
― C.S. Lewis, The Abolition of ManComment
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I acknowledged that you may have a point there but when you look at stuff like Isaiah and Jeremiah where do you see evidence of them believing in the doctrine of the Trinity before Christianity.Originally posted by Berzerker View PostI drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
- Justice Brett KavanaughComment
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I didn't say they did, I said they were surrounded by pagans who believed in the trinity and it crept into their theology in spite of their monotheistic efforts
The Catholic Church did not invent the trinity, they adopted it from pagansComment
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