Rand Paul enters the special Olympics!

[kentonio]

The samething that happens in the UK under NICE. They probably die.

Aww, another funny American who doesn't know what NICE is or what it does. You're cute.

[kentonio]

There is a finite supply of healthcare, kentonio. It has to be rationed somehow. Right now the rationing occurs when doctors refuse to take additional medicaid or medicare patients because it is unprofitable. Switching to a voucher system would increase supply, since people could pay their doctors more for care, encouraging a greater supply of doctors.

You didn't answer my question, so I'll ask it again. What happens to people who need more healthcare than their voucher provides?

[Hauldren Collider]

The same thing that happens to people who can't find a medicare doctor: they don't get the healthcare. Obviously. Look, there will always be people who don't get everything they need. The resources don't exist to get the very best for everyone. The question is, how can we allocate those resources, and maximize those resources.

[DinoDoc]

Aww, another funny American who doesn't know what NICE is or what it does. You're cute.

I'm a person who understands what rationing is and what it means. People either have to pay for it themselves or they don't get it.

[kentonio]

The same thing that happens to people who can't find a medicare doctor: they don't get the healthcare. Obviously. Look, there will always be people who don't get everything they need. The resources don't exist to get the very best for everyone. The question is, how can we allocate those resources, and maximize those resources.

So you support a policy which is likely to lead hundreds of thousands of people to not be able to access the healthcare they need? Which means there's a very good chance many of them will die. Just to clarify, that's what you're supporting right?

[Hauldren Collider]

So you support a policy which is likely to lead hundreds of thousands of people to not be able to access the healthcare they need? Which means there's a very good chance many of them will die. Just to clarify, that's what you're supporting right?

This is true of every single healthcare policy. Stop trying to grab some retarded soundbite and listen to what I'm saying.

EDIT: Well, hundreds of thousands might be a bit high. I would think less than that.

[kentonio]

I'm a person who understands what rationing is and what it means. People either have to pay for it themselves or they don't get it.

NICE approves the vast majority of drugs and treatments. The only time they tend to turn things down for the NHS is when they are experiemental treatments with enormous costs and little proof of effectiveness. The part you idiots also tend to gloss over is that this is not done on an individual basis but on a system wide basis. In other words exactly like the insurance companies you love so much already do. Except that under our system you don't need insurance, because everyone gets treated when they're sick. Because we're not a bunch of souless barbarians.

[kentonio]

This is true of every single healthcare policy. Stop trying to grab some retarded soundbite and listen to what I'm saying.

Please demonstrate how this is the case under a universal healthcare system.

Incidentally its not about a soundbite, its about making you actually say you're ok with the actual result, rather than the normal republican habit of hiding away behind some ideological doublespeak. You are supporting something that will kill people who would not die if the policy you support didn't happen. If you're ok with that then fine, but own that.

[Hauldren Collider]

Medicaid exists for those who can't afford insurance. The majority of uninsured in the US are self employed business owners who just don't feel like paying for it. Even the democrats admit this. That's why they need the individual mandate to convince people to actually get insurance, though that doesn't seem to be working.

xpost

[Hauldren Collider]

Please demonstrate how this is the case under a universal healthcare system.

If it weren't, why would rich people in the UK pay for private doctors? There's treatments you can't get unless you pay extra in the UK, same as in the US.

[Hauldren Collider]

Kentonio, I will admit that there are people who will die from lack of medical treatment under a voucher medicaid/medicare system if you will admit that this is also true in the UK and everywhere else.

[Hauldren Collider]

Kentonio, can you seriously argue that the current method of medicaid funding is actually more efficient and effective than a voucher system? I'm not even talking about cutting medical benefits. I'm just talking about changing the financial scheme to improve the incentives, which even the biggest proponents of medicaid admit is currently FUBAR.

[kentonio]

If it weren't, why would rich people in the UK pay for private doctors? There's treatments you can't get unless you pay extra in the UK, same as in the US.

Oh dear, you just made a stupid mistake.

People in the UK do not get private health insurance because they can't get life saving treatments on the NHS, they get private health insurance because it means they get a range of complimentary services and sometimes faster access to specialists.

[kentonio]

Kentonio, I will admit that there are people who will die from lack of medical treatment under a voucher medicaid/medicare system if you will admit that this is also true in the UK and everywhere else.

Why would I admit something that isn't true? In the UK the only time you'll find a case of someone dying because of an unfunded treatment is in cases where the NHS will not pay for highly expensive experimental or unproven treatments. These account for minute numbers of people each year, and STILL cause anger in the country when they occur.

You're talking about a system where if someones bills go over an extremely limited voucher amount, regardless of whats wrong with them, they are left to fend for themselves. Do you not recognize how goddamn barbaric that is? "Oh sorry Mrs Peters, unfortunately we're not going to help treat your cancer, because you had that car accident in January and your voucher is all used up. Ah well, you're just going to have to die in horrific ****ing pain.".

Before you start bringing up emotional posting again btw, what you're missing is that you SHOULD be ****ing well emotional about this stuff. This is real people potentially being left to suffer horribly and die in a modern western democracy. If you can't be emotional about that, then you need a humanity check.

Kentonio, can you seriously argue that the current method of medicaid funding is actually more efficient and effective than a voucher system? I'm not even talking about cutting medical benefits. I'm just talking about changing the financial scheme to improve the incentives, which even the biggest proponents of medicaid admit is currently FUBAR.

Your current system? It's utterly ridiculous and idiotic. Why would I waste my time defending something I fundamentally disagree with? What you're doing here though is proposing an even more stupid and immoral system and saying its the best solution because your current system is broken. That's terrible logic.

[regexcellent]

The amount of federal money in the education system is only 5-10%. It's just enough to arm-twist schools into complying with NCLB.

Medicaid is a cluster**** because it and medicare turn into a huge price fixing scheme with no limits on usage.