Exit Polls Suggest Syriza Has Won Greek Election

[Colonâ„¢]

that is not what will happen, nor indeed, has been happening.

Then why has Greece been negotiating on the latest tranche of the last bailout? There's a shortfall of +4bn by March.

[dannubis]

That negotiation should be very short.

'- Give me the money

'- No

'- ...

[C0ckney]

Then why has Greece been negotiating on the latest tranche of the last bailout? There's a shortfall of +4bn by March.

because the money isn't going to greece in any meaningful sense, it's going to pay creditors, support the banking system etc.

[Colonâ„¢]

You're basically just saying that Greece should default. If Greece wants to avoid default then they're going to need the troika's money.

[C0ckney]

You're basically just saying that Greece should default. If Greece wants to avoid default then they're going to need the troika's money.

yes. i have been saying that since the beginning of the crisis.

[C0ckney]

but there is a wider point of course. the way the issue is talked about, and the vast sums involved in the 'bailout' lead people to think that northern european countries are paying for greek schools, hospitals etc. rather than simply protecting the greek and wider european banking systems. this in turn leads to incredulity: how can greece be failing with all this money going it? and thus feeds the various 'greeks are lazy, greeks are wasteful' myths that we see time and again.

[Colonâ„¢]

yes. i have been saying that since the beginning of the crisis.

Well, I agree with you, even though you're loony left. You do understand though that if Greece defaults, they're still going to have to balance their books since they won't be able to plug the gap with loans anymore. That renders your distinction between money going to creditors and money going to 'Greece' a bit moot.

[C0ckney]

yes i remember you saying that you'd come round to this way of thinking. there are plenty of options for greece to 'balance its books', even within a capitalist context. they could slash military spending (i'd say a reduction of between 80-90% would be appropriate), tax the church, move to a land based taxation system, for starters. there are diverse possibilities.

[Colonâ„¢]

yes i remember you saying that you'd come round to this way of thinking.

Huh?

[C0ckney]

you said (IIRC - i can't be bothered to go and check) some time ago that you "now thought that greece would have been better off defaulting", or words to that effect.

[Colonâ„¢]

Sure, Greece can cut its military expenditures by 90% and retool its taxation system within the space of a couple of months. FFS they haven't even been able to set up a land registry.

But the inefficiency often associated with Greece remains a fact of life in many areas, despite massive European development aid. The country still lacks important institutions, including a reliable national land registry office where the size of properties and their owners can be registered in a legally binding way.

'We've Lost Another Year'

Ongoing uncertainty about property ownership is considered to be one of the greatest hindrances to development in Greece. In response, the EU dispatched experts from the Netherlands to help Greece establish a functioning system. Earlier this year, the project was put out to a public tender, but the Greeks later simply cancelled it. The financing of the land registry offices was also suddenly questioned, even though they could actually help generate revenues for the country.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/euro-zone-debate-third-bailout-package-for-greece-a-1005977.html

I suppose you won't find that a problem in itself though, since all land will be owned by the state after the communist revolution.

[Colonâ„¢]

you said (IIRC - i can't be bothered to go and check) some time ago that you "now thought that greece would have been better off defaulting", or words to that effect.

Ah could be.

[Sava]

I just saw a pic of Croatia's new president.

[C0ckney]

Sure, Greece can cut its military expenditures by 90% and retool its taxation system within the space of a couple of months. FFS they haven't even been able to set up a land registry.

land reform always provokes fierce resistance from the ruling classes, even registering land is often controversial and landed proprietors make it difficult. the UK for example doesn't have all its land registered, despite a land registry having being set up in 1862! i don't see why it couldn't be done though if it were an urgent necessity; unwilling landowners can be made to co-operate.

I suppose you won't find that a problem in itself though, since all land will be owned by the state after the communist revolution.

well no, when the revolution begins to happen - the revolution of course being a continuous process, not a single event - workers and peasants will occupy the land, they may already be in occupation of it in fact, and cease to recognise the rights of the former 'owners', to receive rents, to evict etc.; they will start to run things on a democratic and co-operative basis. the idea that someone could even own something like a factory, or a plantation, or a block of flats would be exposed as ridiculous as people saw that all the land and capital, all society's productive resources, still existed without the landlords and capitalists. private property, the very idea of private property, would cease to exist. and so on and so forth.

but anyway, yes, having a land registry is important for greece.

[C0ckney]

Greeks vote to stop having **** kicked out of them

GREEK voters have defied expectation by choosing not to be beaten like cringing dogs for the next five years.

Offered the choice between another half-decade of soaring unemployment and plummeting household incomes or a bit of a change, the Greek electorate has stunned Europe by making the wrong decision.

The ruling New Democracy party is still wondering how its platform of Endless Suffering For Everyone was defeated by Syriza’s competing message of Maybe Not That.

Athens voter Elena Mitropoulos said: “I was going to do the responsible thing and vote for continuing austerity, because I know how important it is not to damage the German economy, but madness overtook me in the polling booth.

“Now we face a future of working hospitals, of recovering industry, of my children not begging for food in the streets. I wish I had not been so rash.”

EU technocrat Denys Finch Hatton said: “There is a very real danger that people across Europe, inspired by the Greeks, will no longer choose to be ruled against their best interests by people they never voted for living in massive wealth hundreds of miles away.

“Though we hope they will follow the fine example Scotland set and continue to do just that.”