Bill Maher: Islam is inherently worse than other religions.

[Sava]

People aren't born Muslim or Christian

absolutely wrong

100% complete wrongness

(if you want to claim a moral victory versus the pedantic difference between born and born into, feel free...)

[Felch]

If Islam were strictly an inherited trait, like blue eyes or sickle cell anemia, and it came with no beliefs or ideology, then it would be wrong to criticize Islam.

But Islam isn't inherited from our parents. It is a set of ideas, which must be taught and learned. And people are responsible for the ideas that they hold and that they pass on to their children.

There are certainly people who have never been exposed to other ideas, and simply accept Islam because it's all they know. But that's a reason to be more vocal in our criticisms, not less vocal. People need to be made aware of their errors and it is our responsibility to persuade them to be better people.

[Felch]

absolutely wrong

100% complete wrongness

(if you want to claim a moral victory versus the pedantic difference between born and born into, feel free...)

Born and born into are completely different things. I'm using born to mean things that really have no power over, things like height, mental health, or sexuality. You're talking about how people are products of their environments. And to a certain extent you're right. Somebody who only ever hears about Islam and is never exposed to any other ideas will almost certainly be a Muslim. But that's exactly why we need to feel free to speak openly. People have a right to their identities, but they have a deeper right to be exposed to different ideas, and to share their ideas with each other. What would it mean to be free to your identity, if you had no choice or agency in what you identified with?

[Sava]

Born and born into are completely different things.

Okay. So you are choosing to be a pedantic idiot.

Thanks. I know I don't have to continue this conversation.

[Felch]

I give Sava credit for knowing when he's completely beaten.

[Sava]

it's just not a hill I want to die on/fight for

plus, it'll just turn into "YOU RACIST PUSSYTWAT"

while that may be cathartic, it doesn't accomplish anything

[Heresson]

I bet you'd be hard pressed to find a Red Army soldier who didn't have a cross hidden away, somewhere.

...

[Sava]

...

so?

You're basically trying to claim that the entirety of the Soviet experience was atheist. At least, that's how it sounds to me.

quick question: Does Saddam Hussein get included in any criticism of Islam? or the evils committed by Muslim countries?

[Felch]

quick question: Does Saddam Hussein get included in any criticism of Islam? or the evils committed by Muslim countries?

I wouldn't include him. Islam wasn't his motivating ideology. Even if he claimed it was, I chalk that up to cynical hypocrisy.

It doesn't really matter to me. I don't really care if Muslims do good things or bad things. I criticize Islam because it is inconsistent with human rights. Islam rejects a key personal freedom (religious freedom), and it is therefore wrong and deserves condemnation.

[Sava]

Islam rejects a key personal freedom (religious freedom), and it is therefore wrong and deserves condemnation.

You're completely right.

Like in the OT, I know the First Commandment is, "yeah, feel free to pray to whoever you want"

thus beginning thousands of years of religious freedom under judeo-christian systems

[Felch]

Thanks to a culture that accepts religious criticism, we've put that nonsense behind us. Wouldn't the world be better if Muslims would do the same thing?

[Felch]

Why is Sava so rigidly conservative on this subject?

[Lorizael]

Thanks to a culture that accepts religious criticism, we've put that nonsense behind us. Wouldn't the world be better if Muslims would do the same thing?

In that case your problem is with Muslims and not Islam.

[Bereta_Eder]

Why is Sava so rigidly conservative on this subject?

IMHO it's not a problem of conservatism but just a fear that this line of thinking (which may have some merit*) can easily open up pandora's box of associated ideas that can result in increasing islamophobia.

*The only thing I may be willing to dwell a bit over is what heresson said (and elok alluded to but very briefly because his kids needed to go to bed) is that if christians can point out to jesus as a paragorn of virtue and peace and discard all un-jesus like behavior as un-christian, mohamed was a violent man and muslims can't easily distance themselves from it.

Personally I think that changed little the final outcome and underlining causes are elsewhere, hugely more potent and not dealt with.
But even if we accept that mohamed was violent and jesus wasn't (and according to the predominent perseption indeed, he wasn't) one has to come and tell us does mohamed holds the same position as jesus holds for christians?
aka: is he central to the whole plot and is he regarded as a savior, a god-man and the embodiment of everything that's true and pure?

Or is he considered something less? What is he considered as, anyway?

Again, IMHO this is more of a theological issue, its implications to today's reality may not be so significant if other breeding ground situations were not in place.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Well no, Mohammed doesn't hold the same place as Jesus. He's a prophet of God and merely a man.