Help me understand human nature

[Kidlicious]

Come on... a kid born in a ghetto is almost condemned to stay in it... (not talking exclusively about US though)

If they think so it will become reality. Othereise, no. Even in those schools success is easy.

[Bereta_Eder]

Well, we agree to disagree. I believe that even if some of those kids escape, others will quickly take their place because it's structured like that.

[Kidlicious]

Well, we agree to disagree. I believe that even if some of those kids escape, others will quickly take their place because it's structured like that.

OK. I was a teacher at a ghetto school. How it is structured can not keep them from success in the US.

[Bereta_Eder]

Permit me to express my surprise that you, kenobi and our dear friend Elok are all teachers.
Nevertheless, maybe your can do attitude would be beneficial in the small scheme of things.

[C0ckney]

Nevertheless, maybe your can do attitude would be beneficial in the small scheme of things.

possibly, though lying to oneself is rarely helpful.

[Bereta_Eder]

I wanted to find something nice to say.

[Kidlicious]

I quit after one year. I only play to win.

[Bereta_Eder]

Then also win your son.
It would be the sweetest of victories.

[C0ckney]

I assume "state creches" means something like day-care centers--that's what Wiki linked me to. That, like financial support, is a stopgap measure and should not be considered long-term stable. No day-care, orphanage, etc. can provide the same advantages as a healthy two-parent home; if nothing else, simple arithmetic dictates that the caregiver to child ratio must be much lower. Also the caregivers do not have a parental relationship, nor do they have the same incentive to take good care of the kids--which is not to say that they're negligent (they may be quite idealistic and loving), but I imagine they have something not unlike the teacher-student relationships I observe as a sub: at the end of the day, there are some things the adult is powerless to change in a child's life, and this, combined with the weight of bureaucracy, the high number of kids to care for, and the adult's own personal problems, will induce a rapid burnout.

If we're looking at a future where the number of children involved in such institutions is double or triple what it is now, you're looking at a crushing financial burden as well, at a time period when governments on either side of the Atlantic are feeling parsimonious. There are also class issues to consider. There will continue to be some people who adhere to old-fashioned bourgeois values, and pass them on to their children, and it is on these people that most of the burden of payment for these institutions will fall. I'm not saying the poor are worthless layabouts or what-have-you, but it's not hard to see why the upper classes might get mad; they're being made to pay for somebody else's self-destructive lifestyle. For political purposes, the voices of the upper class are the only ones that really matter until such time as the lower classes start throwing Molotovs. And if you present the upper classes (and whatever remains of the middle) with the idea that they should pay for childcare for an infinitely expanding series of fatherless children, they will frown and politely decline, and their vote will carry. There's your rollback right there. It's all fun and games until the well-to-do have to pay to clean it up.

I suppose there's another option: greatly expanded use of abortion. But that would only turn a poverty problem into a population collapse. At which point I suppose we get a bunch of immigrants from whatever countries still believe in "family values," and hope they don't pick up our bad habits too quickly.

i don't think the debate is about whether two parent or single parent families are superior, the evidence is clear on that point. considering that the political and social changes that have given rise to the current situation, are not going to be reversed, the debate is, and must be, about the best to way to adapt current systems to the existing social reality. this means making childcare more accessible, and work more flexible to accommodate single parents. it may in the future mean some kind of collectivisation of child rearing.

you assume that this burden is unsustainable, but i don't see any evidence for that. in fact many of the countries with the highest percentages of single parent families are also the wealthiest. we should also consider that countries like colombia have only 55% of children living with two parents and even this does not appear to be unsustainable (colombia has lots of problems, but very few of them are due to single parent families). also you assume that the rise of single parent families will continue inexorably, yet this is far from a given. in several european countries the rates have stabilised over the last 10 years or so; although i will admit that the picture is variable.

it's also clear, and here i don't mean to attack you personally, you highlight a major issue, that a large part of the problem with this debate is that many people don't see single parents (usually poor women) as citizens to be helped and accommodated, but rather as a problem to be resolved, a burden to be alleviated. if we frame the debate is this way, we are unlikely to make any progress.

i'm not sure i agree with you about the politics as well. the rich have always complained about the lives and choices of the poor; they are irresponsible, lazy, feckless etc. and it's certainly possible to create a backlash against them through a hostile media, as for example with the unemployed and disabled in the UK. however, i don't think that is possible for single parent families; it's too large a group to attack in a such a direct way (although this has been tried before). this means that whenever some fresh faced right-winger suggests some restriction on support for single parents, or limiting benefits after the second child or some such, although his ideas are quite popular in some sense (people often agree publicly, many more privately - here i agree with you, a lot of people don't like paying support for other people's children - but few care about it enough to change their vote over it, or the issue becomes subsumed in a more general "anti-welfare" stance), nothing is ever really done about them, because the cost in electoral support would be too high.

[Bereta_Eder]

besides the obvious to me at least, that for all my years on this earth I have never seen this much insensitivity (thank god for the culture I live in sometimes) a marriage between religious fundamentalism and extreme neoliberalism should convince even the most ardent atheist of the existance of satan reincarnated on earth.

having said that, all cool.

[Elok]

Quick notes for lack of time: if we are agreed that single-parent families are bad for children, that they are a problem is a given. The only question is how big of a problem, or how they should be prioritized. I don't know anything about Colombia except that they had problems with those FARC people and drugs, so I won't speculate.

[C0ckney]

well we can call it a problem, but for the reasons i've given, it's an insoluble one. therefore, the debate must be about how best to deal with this social reality, not about turning back the tide.

[ricketyclik]

I reckon collectivised child rearing makes a lot of sense. Not only that, I suspect it is in fact the historical norm for human beings, and that it's only the atomisation of society that has brought about anything different.

[ricketyclik]

Plot driven films not adapted from a novel/short story or historical account ? A list of your faves, please.

Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind
Being John Malkovich
Adaptation...

... and in keeping with the above, and the title of this thread, I'm about to watch Human Nature.

[ricketyclik]

I reckon collectivised child rearing makes a lot of sense. Not only that, I suspect it is in fact the historical norm for human beings, and that it's only the atomisation of society that has brought about anything different.

The combined facts that I have 4 children and that I am very lazy have nothing to do with this opinion.