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  • Originally posted by Colon™ View Post
    I'm pretty sure I'm reading it right when I think you are saying the Gulf states would want to fund and arm the group they are presently bombing and who intends to whipe them out.
    no. i am saying it will allow them to fund various groups, including ISIS, without attracting too much criticism i.e. give them the opportunity to do so. this is not the same thing as want. if you're still unsure try saying the following sentence "pointing my dick upward will allow me to piss in my mouth", then see if that makes you want to do it.
    "The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.

    "The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton

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    • Originally posted by Ben Kenobi View Post
      I was against the Iraqi war. You can go back and check my posts. I didn't believe that the US had any long-term strategic interests in the region.

      I also believe that if you're going to break it you buy it and you take the time to do it right. You don't cut and run like Obama did. How long did the US stay in Germany?
      You may be right that, with a presence of US troops for 2-3 decades longer things could have turned out differently.
      For the comparison with US troop presence in germany however, one should add that US troops were more or less welcome in germany (with the only resistance being occasional leftist demonstrations against he USA), whereas the US presence in Iraq resulted in a steady stream of body bags (filled with US soldiers) returning home (killed by IEDs and other means of violent resistance against the US presence).
      In the end I guess it was the significantly rising public pressure (by lots of US citizens tired of seeing corpses of american soldiers returning home) which decided the fate of Iraq.

      (but I think it isn´t the shortened US presence alone ... IMHO it is also a mentality/cultural thing why the USA failed miserably with pacifying Iraq and Afghanistan ... in germany you had people with the same mentality/culture [not to forget that a large percentage of US citizens have german ancestors] ... in Afghanistan, Iraq (and other near east countries) you are confronted with a different culture ... and maybe it isn´t enough if you hire a small number of people (of this culture) as advisors to politicians and soldiers)
      Tamsin (Lost Girl): "I am the Harbinger of Death. I arrive on winds of blessed air. Air that you no longer deserve."
      Tamsin (Lost Girl): "He has fallen in battle and I must take him to the Einherjar in Valhalla"

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      • anyway, on the off chance that you're actually interested in serious discussion, i'll expand a little further. leaving the already dealt with turkey to one side, it's probably worth looking at the west and the gulf states. the west, led by the US, has stated its intention to arm and fund 'moderate' rebels, i.e. those opposed to assad and ISIS. however there are hundreds (maybe thousands?) of rebel groups in syria, with very diverse political outlooks and capabilities; many of these are little more than local defence forces, that may have some value defending their homes/villages/neighbourhoods/towns, but are ineffective outside their local area. the challenge then, faced by western policy makers is finding groups that are: a) 'moderate' and; b) can form some kind of effective fighting force. it is very open to question how much they'll compromise on the former to satisfy the latter; my guess is a lot, especially considering the political bent of the most effective rebel forces to date.

        any idiot, and every rebel commander, can see that fighting ISIS at the same time as fighting the assad regime will make the latter much harder. it is therefore not surprising that many rebel groups have expressed an unwillingness to fighting ISIS, and that several are seeking alliances or non-aggression agreements with them, to allow them to focus on the common enemy. there's also the fact that the civil war is multi-sided, which makes for a confusing array of alliances and agreements. for example the free syrian army have agreed to form a common front with the kurds in certain regions (see here for details), which will no doubt cause problems with previous backers turkey.

        ultimately it's clear, as i've said previously in this thread, that the most effective anti-ISIS force in syria is the assad regime and that moves to strengthen other anti-assad rebels, will ultimately benefit ISIS. the other side to this is that the most effective anti-assad force in syria is ISIS (though this is perhaps more open to debate), and therefore the question that is and will be posed to those countries that have a long term commitment to toppling assad is whether they will continue to work towards their long term aims by backing the force most likely to bring that about, or change course in the face of international pressure and risk strengthening assad. or perhaps they'll follow the western lead and play a double game, or a fudge, whatever you want to call it, by pursuing to varying degrees contradictory objectives...
        "The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.

        "The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton

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        • Turkey's role actually is very clear and makes perfect sense (in a more "brutal" mindset though).
          ISIS are indeed an inconvenience (for the established political status quo) but the 12 million of kurds living in SE anatolia for whom the PKK is a, if not the, major vehicle for more rights or even autonomy is the first concern since it is the major threat for partition.
          Alas the PKK with the exeption of pesky Greece in former years and only unofficially, did not receive any assistance but Turkey was let to engage in venomous efforts agaisnt it with full backing of the west and particularly the US.
          The issue is twofold.
          One is that Turkey is a NATO ally and an important one so liberation movements don't get the backing the ukranian ones get for example.
          Two, the PKK is a marxist-leninist organization (and has been involved in armed struggle, they are not only about rhetorics, labeled terrorists since it's not "our" guys) and for so many dear posters here and else where marxism is the two horned devil of the bible that st george must strike down with his spear. Hua.

          Now, Turkey is in dire straits but its rational is to let those two (ISIS and the kurds) kill eachother as much as possible.
          It will fund ISIS because it considers Assad its mortal enemy whereas ISIS, even if it gets a large chunk of Syrian territory is by far more manageable and will have the hate of the west against it.
          Whereas Assad, with russian backing, is a far more ferocious enemy.
          It's complicated (as is everywhere).

          Turkey's official line is that both the PKK and ISIS are terrorist organizations and it is of no interest to her what happens to either. So is the west's, even though they have come to the realization that the PKK is far less of a threat for its interests than ISIS (which is unsurprisingly, uncompromisingly anti-western)
          Last edited by Bereta_Eder; October 13, 2014, 02:53.

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          • Και το όνομά της είναι Ναλίν Αφρίν (Nalin Afrin). Είναι η γυναίκα στρατηγός των Κούρδων που υπερασπίζεται την Κομπάνι από το Ισλαμικό Κράτος. Η γενική στρατιωτική


            if you want to put a face in the story it's nalin afrin, member of the YPG, defender of Cobani. The issue is clear. If women are going to evade being raped and sold in slavery they have to take up arms. And that's exactly what they did, in full equality with the men (not bad for "muslims", huh?). Unfortunately the lad next to her got killed by ISIS (his name was mazlum bagok).

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            • Click image for larger version

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              Unfortunately this dude with the beard here (hattab Alkurdi) is a kurd but also is a leader of the ISIS attack on cobani.

              edit: oh. recent info on the media say he is departed from this world via a kurdish sniper.
              Last edited by Bereta_Eder; October 13, 2014, 03:50.

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              • Hope it was a female sniper
                Tamsin (Lost Girl): "I am the Harbinger of Death. I arrive on winds of blessed air. Air that you no longer deserve."
                Tamsin (Lost Girl): "He has fallen in battle and I must take him to the Einherjar in Valhalla"

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Bereta_Eder View Post
                  Turkey's official line is that both the PKK and ISIS are terrorist organizations and it is of no interest to her what happens to either. So is the west's, even though they have come to the realization that the PKK is far less of a threat for its interests than ISIS (which is unsurprisingly, uncompromisingly anti-western)
                  Turkey is peace talks with the PKK though and the organisation has threatened to pull the plug on those talks if Turkey does nothing. Whereas if Turkey would step in reconciliation with its Kurdish population probably would get a massive boost. Turkey's attitude is as petty as it gets.
                  DISCLAIMER: the author of the above written texts does not warrant or assume any legal liability or responsibility for any offence and insult; disrespect, arrogance and related forms of demeaning behaviour; discrimination based on race, gender, age, income class, body mass, living area, political voting-record, football fan-ship and musical preference; insensitivity towards material, emotional or spiritual distress; and attempted emotional or financial black-mailing, skirt-chasing or death-threats perceived by the reader of the said written texts.

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                  • It has gone far beyond that I'm afraid (and you are totally right).

                    Kurds now don't only want rights and reconciliation they also want protection of their kurdish "brothers" outside Turkey. According to sources that I cannot verify because I simply don't trust that media, Turkey has opened up hospitals for the ISIS, whereas it now jails syrian kurds that arrive at its hospitals. So ISIS gets medical treament (and hint hint weapons, on the by) and syrian kurds are "removed" from battle so to say.

                    Even if it's true or even if it isn't,
                    Turkey will NOT help the syrian kurds, it will help ISIS. The question is how to deal with inside Turkey kurdish outrage (and there's going to be some). Erdogan is going to lose the next elections because of Turkey's kurds unless he takes even more supriment measures. (how much more?)
                    Iraqi kurdistan is stable and secure. syrian kurdistan is under heavy ISIS attack (the leaders of the YGP say to the media that they are fighting ISIS tanks with just rifles) and next is turkish kurdistan's autonomy or more rights ambitions.

                    I would link a video of something that happened in the turkishkurdish/syriankurdish border but is so full of hate in the comments that I won't do it.
                    It basically showing turkish tanks escaping from the border being under "attack" by kurds with rocks.
                    They could fire back though, but they didn't. So that's something.
                    So some border passes are now open.
                    Last edited by Bereta_Eder; October 13, 2014, 13:41.

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                    • Originally posted by Proteus_MST View Post
                      In the end I guess it was the significantly rising public pressure (by lots of US citizens tired of seeing corpses of american soldiers returning home) which decided the fate of Iraq.
                      Didn't it end because the Iraqis ordered US troops out, after getting tired of seeing Iraqi civilians ending up in bodybags from US mercenary massacres and the like?

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                      • Originally posted by kentonio View Post
                        Didn't it end because the Iraqis ordered US troops out, after getting tired of seeing Iraqi civilians ending up in bodybags from US mercenary massacres and the like?
                        Shhh!!!!!!! They've been acquitted.
                        "I say shoot'em all and let God sort it out in the end!

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                        • as predicted Turkey bombs....

                          Spoiler:
                          the kurds
                          Turkish warplanes bomb Kurdish rebels near the Iraqi border, in the first major air raid since the PKK declared a ceasefire in 2013.

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                          • Originally posted by kentonio View Post
                            Didn't it end because the Iraqis ordered US troops out, after getting tired of seeing Iraqi civilians ending up in bodybags from US mercenary massacres and the like?
                            I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
                            - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

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                            • Originally posted by Bereta_Eder View Post
                              as predicted Turkey bombs....

                              Spoiler:
                              the kurds
                              Turkish warplanes bomb Kurdish rebels near the Iraqi border, in the first major air raid since the PKK declared a ceasefire in 2013.

                              well now there's a surprise!
                              "The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.

                              "The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton

                              Comment


                              • Congrats Turkey, you've just extended the rebellion by another generation, if the Kurds will ever come to terms with being part of the country.
                                DISCLAIMER: the author of the above written texts does not warrant or assume any legal liability or responsibility for any offence and insult; disrespect, arrogance and related forms of demeaning behaviour; discrimination based on race, gender, age, income class, body mass, living area, political voting-record, football fan-ship and musical preference; insensitivity towards material, emotional or spiritual distress; and attempted emotional or financial black-mailing, skirt-chasing or death-threats perceived by the reader of the said written texts.

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