Elok & C0ckney's religion and society thread.

[Elok]

Yep Philokalia means exactly that, the love of beauty.

"Orthodoxy has been called a revolt of beauty against the ugliness of the modern world".
wow... this is quite poetic.

Well, I can't take credit; I think it was Fr. Stephen Freeman somewhere on his blog, but I'm not sure.

God in the bible is refered to as ποιητής which means creator and poet. "Poio" means I create and that's where the word poet comes.

So "poet of the sky and earth"
"creator of the sky and earth"
Anyway, silly ramblings, but that's what your phrase brought to my mind.

Not at all silly. Remember "Let there be light"? Fits in just fine with the Bible. Orthodoxy is panentheistic. Not pantheistic--the universe is not God, but God is continually immanent within every part of it. It pours out of Him in a continual act of creation. The poet is still speaking.

Also, I'm told we lose a lot of scriptural meaning in translation. Kyrie eleison, for example; I'm told that the latter word means something akin to anointing an injury to soothe it. But we translate it "Lord, have mercy," and mercy is the sort of thing a judge shows to a convict, or a warrior to a defeated enemy.

You seem to be a dynamic and united church and not have any of the ugliness that is sometimes associated with religion.

Well, not exactly. It's too complicated a situation to get into just now (bedtime for wee ones in the Eastern U.S.). We have our ups and downs, and we're far from perfect. But I have hope for Orthodoxy in America.

[korn469]

I think a fairly sizable portion of the population will seek spiritual experiences for the foreseeable future. However, I think organized religions are going to suffer in the coming years. While many people may even identify as Christians, it seems like more and more people do less and less for the church. Also it seemsthat evangelicals are especially at the mercy of the interpretation of their ministers and they're becoming less doctrinally rigid and more open to heresey. I'm looking at you Joel Osteen and churches that accept homosexuality. The bible seems to be clear on homosexuality is a sin. Though what I've always wondered is why do so many gays want to be part of a religion that seems especially hateful towards them?

Also, I do think that science is in conflict with many miracles, creation stories and other "facts" in the bible. I understand that ethics and laws laws are a different category. Thou shall not kill and Thou shall not steal have tons of importance today. However anything like Noah taken in a literal way just seems foolish.

[Bereta_Eder]

Also, I'm told we lose a lot of scriptural meaning in translation. Kyrie eleison, for example; I'm told that the latter word means something akin to anointing an injury to soothe it. But we translate it "Lord, have mercy," and mercy is the sort of thing a judge shows to a convict, or a warrior to a defeated enemy.

Well, instictively Kyrie eleison translates to (my) soul as the first thing you said "anointing an injury to soothe a wound". It has absolutely nothing to do with judges or warriors or anything of such "violence".

I think it means something like Lord help me, bless me, provide for me spiritually, aleviate my pain. I could also say "share my pain" but that would be maybe too bold.
"Have mercy" could well be a translation but in a way someone closes someone in his embrace protectively and provides for him/her
Again this is by instict. I don't know the etymology of Eleos where Eleison comes from :/
Maybe the "have mercy" terminology also makes sence from what follows the kyrie eleison.
kyrie Iisou Christe eleison me, ton amartolon". Lord Jesus Christ bless me (have mercy on me) the sinner (in a way of admitting the imperfection, the worn/like condition)

Now I will go too far fetched and make a suggestion. Eleos sounds like Eleon.
Eleon (oil) wasn't it placed on wounds to sooth them in ancient times?
It makes sense.
(not sure about this at all!)

[Sava]

A church is the last place to go to learn about God.

[C0ckney]

From the enlightenment I agree, but they don't have anything to do with science ( and definitely not the dissemination of scientific knowledge), other than the common progenitor (the enlightenment).

JM

well i don't think there's much more value to be gained from labouring this point. i'd like to say a few words about religion in brazil and would be interested in your, and elok's, thoughts on chile and peru respectively.

brazil is quite an outwardly religious country. you'll see people reading their bibles on public transport; they'll cross themselves when they pass a church or when the bells chime as they exit the metro; they'll observe lent; they'll invoke god at every opportunity*; businesses will often have some religious quotes or messages in their literature. as an example i was given a fridge magnet yesterday with the message "the lord is our shepherd" (this is quite a common one); the company sells gas. churches are full, or at least reasonably frequented. there is another side to this as well, most brazilians are catholic, but will routinely ignore the more restrictive of the church's teachings. so brazilians will use condoms, have sex before marriage, not think twice about getting a divorce, have no problem with different sexualities**, but probably won't eat meat on a friday.

there is also a divide between the classes, the catholic church is the church of the elite, and also of most of the middle classes, the more established protestant churches, presbyterians, baptists, methodists etc. count on sections of the urban middle classes. in rural areas, and in certain urban contexts, especially in the north-east, catholicism mixes (or more properly, has mixed) with african religions to form some weird and wonderful combinations of belief; traditional catholicism mixed with 'folk saints', charms, curses, divination, faith healing, and all manner of woo and nonsense. there is also a strong spiritualist element, which is quite respectable. in the slums these churches are mostly absent, although you will find the occasional catholic church, and there is some baptist penetration in some communities. religion in the slums is mostly under the direction of evangelical protestants, in particular charismatic and neo-pentecostal churches. i lived in the slums for a couple of years and it was very interesting to see the divide between the nominally religious (i can't recall encountering anyone who was, or would admit to being, an atheist), and those who take it seriously; this divide isn't just seen on sundays either. the contrast with the UK, where the poor, except perhaps certain recent immigrants, have no interest at all in organised religion, was very striking.

in terms of religion and wider society, there are a few things going on. politically, although there is a formal separation of church and state, the catholic church retains a fair bit of influence, both socially and politically, but at the same time it is limited by a number of factors. firstly the broadly left wing government have not forgotten the role the church played during the dictatorship (unfortunately the catholic church's 'anti-revolutionary' stance generally means 'anti-worker' and 'anti-peasant' in a south american context, and they'll quite happily climb into bed with some real fascists). secondly the church has accepted defeat on questions like gay marriage, preferring to concentrate their energies on more winnable fights like abortion, which is still illegal in most circumstances - and this is unlikely to change in the near future. catholics are generally more liberal on social questions than protestants in brazil.

a lot of the churches in the slums are little more than a room where a few families gather to hold services and do some crazy pentecostal things; some however have wider ambitions and influence. the assembly of god is probably the biggest network, and in almost every slum i've been in i've seen at least of their churches. the universal church of the kingdom of god, which i believe is now in almost every country, bridges the gap between slum and middle class with its brand of charismatic preaching and shameless exploitation. they are active politically, under the banner of the bizarrely named 'liberal party', which now forms party of a wider (and less successful, for various reasons) block of christian democrats and social conservatives (which support the current government in parliament). their views, and the views of similar churches are socially very conservative, and they spend a lot of time talking about 'curing' homosexuality. they also attract a lot of satire; my personal favourite was a video where what appeared to be an earnest evangelically preacher was promoting a spray designed to drive out demons. although mocked by the conventionally religious educated classes, they are quite powerful and can get people out on to the streets over certain issues, as well as influencing opinion in more subtle ways. curiously, although most of their adherents are poor, they have precious little to say about social justice.

traditional churches broadly reject consumerism, however these new churches seem to not only accept but even encourage it (this is broadly in line with their demographic). you will see, for example, a fast food outlet in an igreja universal, and even a shopping centre as part of their new church in são paulo. it will be interesting to see how this marriage of consumerism and charismatic religion plays out.

there's a lot more to say, but i must get on with some work.

* although this by itself perhaps doesn't mean anything; i remember a film about a muslim who finds out he was adopted, and born jewish, in which the characters, more or less devout muslims were forever saying 'jesus' and 'god' (and variations thereof) as exclamations.
** the brazilian attitude toward homosexuality in particular is somewhat ambiguous, but i don't really have time to go into too much detail here.

[Bereta_Eder]

now that's what i call first hand reporting

also

"my personal favourite was a video where what appeared to be an earnest evangelically preacher was promoting a spray designed to drive out demons"


damn it, this almost made my day

[Jon Miller]

The society has both deeply liberal and deeply conservative elements (both socially and economically). While most people are Catholic (and believe, unlike Europe), the churches are very empty. The charismatic churches are full. I am suspicious that in another generation or so the Catholic church will be in trouble like in Europe.

JM

[Imran Siddiqui]

It's also modifying the culture somewhat, though, as we absorb some Protestant notions with the converts. Hard to see how it will play out.

IIRC, I remember reading that some old school Orthodox were a bit dismayed that the new converts still were thinking "Protestant"-ly. Basically evangelicals who enjoyed liturgy wanted a conservative liturgical church to attend, but didn't necessarily realize all of the demands or beliefs that characterize Orthodoxy (It is somewhat amusing seeing evangelicals who'd insult Catholics as Mary-worshippers try to navigate Orthodox views on the Theotokos )

[C0ckney]

I think you have a point re: industrialization. Have you read William Cavanaugh? I think that's how you spell his name, not sure. He wrote a firebrand essay entitled "Killing for the telephone company" where he argued that the nation-state gradually took over many of the traditional functions of religion and other "intermediate organizations," such as guilds and civic groups, to essentially replace God as our central loyalty. I don't know that I agree with all of his conclusions (I don't know enough early modern history to refute or confirm his statements), but you might find him interesting. At the very least, he's more thought-provoking than what usually passes for American conservatism these days.

no, i've never heard of him, but i will look into it. i'm interested in reading more about religion and society in america, as most of my information comes from standard histories and writings on other matters which only touch upon the subject of religion. my english (non-internet) reading comes from whatever comes in to the second hand bookshops in rio, which is actually a surprisingly varied selection, so i'll keep an eye out.

Anyway, religion does appeal most strongly to the bourgeois/middle class; contrary to the opiate-of-the-masses rhetoric, modern poor people are more likely to pray in the form of lotto tickets than go to church. And the middle class in America is not doing so hot.

i think this is one thing that people misunderstand marx on. this is the actual quote from the introduction to the critique of hegel's philosophy of right.

Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real
suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of
soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.

The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness.
To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition
that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears
of which religion is the halo.

it's fairly clear that marx would regard atheists such as richard dawkins with disdain. marx considered the idea of god an important one, which deserved to taken seriously, even if not necessarily a true one. however his view has been transformed into a crude dismisal of religion and god, and this misunderstanding is just as much the fault of marxists as their opponents.

[Bereta_Eder]

****ing hegels....

made me remember a quote I've read: "atheism is a luxury of the rich"

[Sava]

kegels are actually a good exercise for men

[My Wife Hates CIV]

the church is a scam. I've been a couple of times in my life. in the navy decades ago (just to sleep). x-wife and her family - god, what a bore. church, church was a bore, she was something else and just a month or so ago, went because my buddy wanted to show us his church.

they pass that plate around and people really put cash in it ?!?!? you know where that money is going, right??? you must.

[Sava]

even child rapists need to eat!

[Bereta_Eder]

I'm sorry I used an insulting word. It was just because that hegels quote made a big impression. I think this is one of the best threads. I'd love it to continue.
Thank you

[The Mad Monk]

the church is a scam. I've been a couple of times in my life. in the navy decades ago (just to sleep). x-wife and her family - god, what a bore. church, church was a bore, she was something else and just a month or so ago, went because my buddy wanted to show us his church.

they pass that plate around and people really put cash in it ?!?!? you know where that money is going, right??? you must.

It goes to pay the Pastor's salary and any benefits, any other paid positions, and building maintenance. Extra goes to missions, if there is extra.