The Impossibility of Growth

[Geronimo]

100% would mean we're turning cadavers into goods and energy.

no. It would mean we are recycling as much trash than we are producing. Enough of this could be legacy trash to allow exceeding 100% for a while while still leaving bodies in the ground for an arbitrary amount of time, perhaps long enough to "recycle" on their own through natural decay.

Furthermore, cadaver waste is self limiting. 1 cadaver per lifetime per capita will not be exceeded no matter how affluent the society becomes.

[The Mad Monk]

Ahem.

Recycling Tanks. Not just for SMAC anymore.

[N35t0r]

Rising costs of natural resources,.

This has been going on since ever. We're still far away of running out of anything. If anything, rising costs of natural resources will only encourage recycling and more efficient use of resources.

global warming,

According to the IPCC, we're still in time to stabilize without any major catastrophes.

deforestation,

Why is the turning point just now? This has been going on since ages ago. Also, now is the only period in human history in which some areas of the earth have seen regrowth of forests that wasn't caused by the deaths of a significant chunk of the population. If the current deforestation rate and reforestation rate trends continue, we'll be full of forests in 50 years time.

desertification, oceanic garbage patches. You name it you got it.

All nice and good, but you're only naming problems, not providing arguments as to why your solution is the only viable one. 30 years ago, you could have added ozone depletion to your list, and called everyone who disagreed a ******. However, we've already taken enough measures to stop depletion to the point of seeing a decrease in 10% of ozone-depleting substances, and expecting a complete recovery of the ozone layer in 60 years time.

If you want to convince us that we're past the 'point of no return', then you'll have to do a bit better than just mentioning issues.

[Aeson]

Also, the only way to reduce pesticide use is GMOs.

Because, well, organic farming doesn't exist.

I'm glad you dropped the ridiculous extensive agriculture point. Intensive organic agriculture is a much better option than extensive agriculture.

There are problems with organic still though. To get the same output would require much more land under cultivation. It also requires vastly more land used for extraction of nutrients (generally, livestock on grasslands). Nutrients have to come from somewhere. It's more labor intensive. That isn't a bad thing in and of itself but requires dropping immigration restrictions or it will be a bad thing (increased shipping, poor regulation, bad working conditions, growing the wrong crops for the local environment, etc).

So if you tried to switch over to all organic, you'd have to choose between increased starvations or massive expansion of land under cultivation/extraction. Of course we can do some organic increases basically for free, and always should when it's possible.

The solution to these restrictions are dropping immigration restrictions, and once again ... GMO to increase output and decrease inputs, and/or nuclear powered greenhouses (very intensive). Also waste harvesting facilities are just as important for organic as any other type of production. GMO can help there too both by improving agricultural waste digestion processes, and even improving the quality and amount of agricultural waste generated.

[Aeson]

And finally, better distribution "won't happen".

Therefore I'm convinced that political action shouldn't be done.

I said better distribution doesn't happen even though virtually everyone claims to want it. I'm not going to say it won't ever happen. It certainly could at some point in the future. At the point it does happen, then is the time to start talking about reducing food production. Reducing food production before it happens is essentially just saying you want more malnourished and starving poor people.

[Aeson]

As resources deplete, their price will increase.

This is absolutely true.

Therefore, there will be more "wealth", as reflected in their price.

You're the one who is worried about 3% economic growth based on the ignorant assertion that that growth is solely material resources being increased in volume. It should be a great relief to you to realize that much of the economic growth you're so afraid of has been immaterial. Inflation. Intellectual property. Services. An ever diminishing portion of the economy is material.

Increased prices of material resources means there will be more wealth. Not material, but immaterial. For an immaterial value producer to make > X required to buy more expensive material resources, they will have to produce > X value of immaterial goods and services to pay for it. This is real growth.

[pchang]

Think of all the electrons used up by my internet surfing. They will all end up in a landfill somewhere. Once we've mined them all, where will we get more electrons?

[Aeson]

LOL. only 75 years...why the blink of eye in technological innovation!

Also he's ignoring entirely non-recycling decay and immaterial wealth. They just don't exist.

[AAAAAAAAH!]

In case you haven't understood yet, the point is not that growth will go on until the planet explodes.

It is that there cannot be growth for long, therefore, a monetary system that requires growth to function is doomed to failure.

1. Our monetary system doesn't actually "require" growth
2. Keeping trash production rates at their current level would not prevent growth.

[Fake Boris]

Yet another streak of ignorance

It's like you guys have to be re-taught how to read.

[Fake Boris]

1. Our monetary system doesn't actually "require" growth

Yes it does. If there's no growth, the monetary mass will run out as interest is paid.

[Fake Boris]

Let's take a break from this.

http://earthweareone.com/mass-fish-d...he-past-month/

Millions of fish are suddenly dying all over the planet. In fact, there have been dozens of mass fish death events reported in the past month alone. So why is this happening? Why are fish dying in unprecedented numbers all over the world? When more than six tons of fish died in Marina Del Rayover the weekend, it made headlines all over the United States. But the truth is that what just happened off the southern California coast is just the tip of the iceberg. In 2014, mass fish die-offs have pretty much become a daily event globally. Individually, each event could perhaps be dismissed as an anomaly, but as you will see below when they are all put together into one list it truly is rather stunning. So is there a reason why so many fish are dying? Is there something that connects these mass fish death events? Has something about our environment changed? The following are just a few examples of the mass fish death reports that have been coming in day after day from all over the globe…

*In April, 500,000 carp were found “floating belly-up in Kentucky’s Cumberland River“.

*Over the weekend, thousands upon thousands of fish died just off the southern California coastline…

California Fish and Wildlife workers are still scooping dead sea life from the surface of the harbor Monday after thousands of dead anchovies, stingrays and even an octopus died and floated up over the weekend.
So far officials have cleaned up 6 tons of dead fish, and they still have a long way to go.

*The death of approximately 35,000 fish up in Minnesota is being blamed on a “lack of oxygen“.

*The recent die off of thousands of fish in the Shark River near Belmar, New Jersey is also being blamed on “oxygen depletion“.

*Officials in Menifee, California are still trying to figure out what caused the death of thousands of fish in Menifee Lake a few weeks ago…

Authorities continued testing the water in Menifee Lake Friday after thousands of dead fish have been seen floating since last weekend.
Menifee city officials first heard reports Saturday of floating fish at the lake, which is located on private property about a half-mile east of the 215 Freeway.
*In the Gulf of Mexico, dolphins and sea turtles are dying “in record numbers“.

*Maryland officials are still puzzled by the death of 7,000 Atlantic menhadenlast month…

State environmental scientists are investigating the cause of a fish kill that left about 7,000 dead Atlantic menhaden in waters that include the Inner Harbor and Fells Point.
Jay Apperson, spokesman for the Maryland Department of the Environment, said that biologists went by boat on Tuesday to the area of Monday’s fish kill. He says the area extended from the mouth of the Patapsco River, up the Baltimore Harbor to Fells Point and Fort McHenry.
*Mass fish die-offs in Lake Champlain up in Vermont are being called “the new normal” by government officials.

*Along the coast of northern California, seals and young sea lions are dying “in record numbers“.

*Three months ago, farmers in Singapore lost 160 tons of fish to a mass die-off event.

*Back in September, approximately 40 kilometers of the Fuhe River in China “was covered with dead fish“.

*Also during last September, close to ten tons of dead fish were found floating on a lake near the town of Komotini, Greece.

The following are some more examples of mass fish death events from just the past several weeks that come from a list compiled on another website…

*****

17th May 2014 – Masses of fish turn up dead in a marina in Pultneyville, New York, America. Link

16th May 2014 – Mass die off of fish in a river in Aragatsotn, Armenia. Link

15th May 2014 – Hundreds of fish dying off ‘due to pollution’ in the wetlands of Rewalsar, India. Link

14th May 2014 – Thousands of dead fish washing ashore in Cootes Paradise, Hamilton, Canada. Link

13th May 2014 – Tens of thousands of dead fish wash up along coast of Tasmania, Australia. Link

12th May 2014 – Mass death of fish in the river Eden ‘is a mystery’ in Cumbria,England. Link

11th May 2014 – Thousands of dead Puffer Fish, also dead turtles washing up on various beaches in Colombia and Costa Rica. Link and here

11th May 2014 – Hundreds of dead fish found in a pond is ‘a mystery’ in Southborough, England. Link

10th May 2014 – Thousands of fish dead due to pollution in spring in Sikkim,India. Link

9th May 2014 – Die off of Fish ’causes panic’ in the Luda Yana River in Bulgaria.Link

8th May 2014 – Thousands of dead fish appear in a lake ‘shock residents’ in Mangalore, India. Link

8th May 2014 – 12 TONS of dead fish removed from lakes in Chisago County, Minnesota, America. Link

7th May 2014 – Massive die off of fish in reservoirs in Quanzhou, China. Link

7th May 2014 – Thousands of fish found dead on the shores of Roatan,Honduras. Link

5th May 2014 – Hundreds of dead fish wash up on a beach ‘a mystery’ in San Antonio Oeste, Argentina. Link

5th May 2014 – Mass death of fish found in lakes in Almindingen, Denmark.Link

4th May 2014 – Mass die off of fish in a river in Fujian, China. Link

3rd May 2014 – 1,000+ dead fish wash ashore along a lake in Ontario, Canada.Link

2nd May 2014 – 40,000 fish die suddenly in a dam in Piaui, Brazil. Link

30th April 2014 – Mass fish kill ‘worst I’ve seen in 26 years of working here’ in Iowa, America. Link

30th April 2014 – Large amount of dead fish found floating along a river in Xiasha District, China. Link

29th April 2014 – Dozens of sea turtles are washing up dead in South Mississippi,America. Link

29th April 2014 – Thousands of dead fish washing up along the shores of Lakes in Wisconsin, America. Link

28th April 2014 – Turtles and other marine life continue to wash up dead in Bari,Italy. Link

28th April 2014 – Large fish kill found in the Mogi River in Brazil. Link

25th April 2014 – Large fish kill found in a reservoir in Nanchong, China. Link

24th April 2014 – Large amount of fish wash up dead along a river in La Chorrera, Panama. Link

23rd April 2014 – 2 Million fish found dead in a dam in Tehran, Iran. Link

23rd April 2014 – Mass die off of fish in Island lake in Ontario, Canada. Link

23rd April 2014 – Thousands of dead fish appear in a lake in Mudanjiang, China.Link

22nd April 2014 – 1,000 fish found dead in Oona River, County Tyrone,Northern Ireland. Link

21st April 2014 – Large amounts of fish washing up dead along the Panchganga River in India. Link

19th April 2014 – MILLIONS of dead fish found floating in Thondamanaru Lagoon, Sri Lanka. Link

*****

And remember, this list represents events that have happened in just a little over the past month.

So what is causing all of these mass fish death events?

Please feel free to share your opinion by posting a comment below…

[Aeson]

Yes it does. If there's no growth, the monetary mass will run out as interest is paid.

No. Even if there was no growth (and this basically requires us to stop progressing technologically) ... we have fiat currency. Nominal growth is easy.

[Fake Boris]

While the value of immaterial wealth may rise, its value can only turn into inflation if there are no corresponding material resources.

[Fake Boris]

No. Even if there was no growth (and this basically requires us to stop progressing technologically) ... we have fiat currency. Nominal growth is easy.

Of course you could create the money interest free.

Which would be a pretty major monetary reform.