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Chilean activist destroys student debt papers worth $500m

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  • #31
    I am at one of the best universities in Chile (UTFSM). It takes students on average something like 6 years or more to graduate and that doesn't count all of the ones who leave without graduation. And this is one of the best universities, the MIT of Chile.

    The main issue I think is preparation. Chile is a very classed by society (the GINI is much worse than the US, for example), and then causes both the 'normal schools' and the 'private schools' (1-12) to be very poor. People will spend 20k USD to send their child to a private school which would be considered only average (not like Kuci/HC school or even AS school) in the US. The free schools are much much worse, effectively meaning that the only people who are partly prepared are those whose parents are rich. Since the expensive schools don't have to compete much, they give a subpar education too (there is a huge interview process for those 'elite' schools to see if you are the right sort to have your child get in...).

    This is in a country where the GDP per capita is ~16k USD and the median household income is closer to ~13k USD. It was much much lower 10 years ago too (in PPP, the GDP per capita is now 23k USD while in 1994 it was 6.5k USD, http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD )

    The university issue is also complicated. As Chile has become more wealthy, there has been a huge increase of universities (previous to 10 years ago, there were about 10 accredited universities in the country, now there is 20+ in Valparaiso alone). Most of these universities are also poor, and so students who attend them take a long time to graduate, but aren't actually moved into the upper class as far as jobs go when they graduate (those go to the graduates of places like UTFSM). This upsets them, many feel they are 'owed' because they went to university and paid so much money (often for much more than 4 years).

    There are many 'pre universities' which are meant to get the students up to university level. This is good idea, much better than spending many years at university. This is a new thing though.

    I think the main problem is that the 1-12 education is broken, and produces unprepared students. The other two problems are that students expect that if they pay money they should get what they payed for (an education which will let them into the elite and give them a good job) and that universities focus on profits instead of educating the students.

    There isn't the problem similar to the US where students take worthless degrees. I have a hard time getting good physics students here because all of the best ones want to be engineers so they can make money.

    Good things in Chile is that the government finances are good, the country has grown enormously in the last 20 years, and unemployment is ~2% or something.

    JM
    Jon Miller-
    I AM.CANADIAN
    GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Lorizael View Post
      Certainly, but this individual's act makes it more difficult to do any of that.
      why?

      There are many different ways to pay for education. The student loan system is one way. Proposing that we adopt other systems is reasonable. Setting fire to the current system is not.
      that depends entirely on what you consider reasonable. it seems to me that by taking direct action, the artist has brought the problem out into the open and got people to talk about it.
      "The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.

      "The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton

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      • #33
        Taxes in Chile are about 20%. 7% goes to the health system, there is a public option that everyone can get with the 7% no matter how much money it is, there are private companies also which would be glad to take your 7% if it is high enough (and they cover more/etc).

        6% or so goes to a pension fund. I think you just get out what you put in, but you have to contribute.

        The other 7% goes for all other running of the country. There is import fees too, so things like iphones are 20-30% more than in the US.

        JM
        Jon Miller-
        I AM.CANADIAN
        GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

        Comment


        • #34
          jon, the situation you describe is somewhat similar to that in brasil. the rich pay for private schooling so that their children get into the public universities, which are very good. there are private universities too, and more are opening all the time, but these are expensive, of variable quality and are not well thought of.
          "The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.

          "The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton

          Comment


          • #35
            Yeah, sounds exactly the same. All the 'poor' universities are private and possibly more expensive than the good ones.

            And because of the lack of competition from the masses, even the private 1-12 (which are crazily expensive) don't have to be that good... and I consider the majority of 'elite' students under prepared compared to a good US 1-12 (students who went to places like TJ, or the one that AS went to, or many of the school systems in SD/ND/MN).

            JM
            Last edited by Jon Miller; May 20, 2014, 10:45.
            Jon Miller-
            I AM.CANADIAN
            GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by C0ckney View Post
              why?
              Because now the school has less money to educate with.

              that depends entirely on what you consider reasonable. it seems to me that by taking direct action, the artist has brought the problem out into the open and got people to talk about it.
              There are plenty of other ways he could have brought attention to this that didn't involve destroying a good chunk of the university's funding. Because rich people can pay no matter what, eliminating a source of revenue for the school is just going to make it that much more difficult for the poor to get an education.
              Click here if you're having trouble sleeping.
              "We confess our little faults to persuade people that we have no large ones." - François de La Rochefoucauld

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              • #37
                Europe does free higher education really well.

                However, in the US it has probably only been broken for 20ish years, and this is probably primarily because of the 'perks' of nice stadiums/gyms/etc (and secondary due to the huge increase in administrators and administrator salaries).

                It isn't the same issue as Chile.

                JM
                Jon Miller-
                I AM.CANADIAN
                GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Lorizael View Post
                  Because now the school has less money to educate with.
                  that doesn't follow at all. i was talking about systems of funding, not the circumstances of a particular university, which, as i've pointed out, is to close anyway.

                  There are plenty of other ways he could have brought attention to this that didn't involve destroying a good chunk of the university's funding. Because rich people can pay no matter what, eliminating a source of revenue for the school is just going to make it that much more difficult for the poor to get an education.
                  this is a ridiculous argument.
                  "The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.

                  "The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    OK.
                    Click here if you're having trouble sleeping.
                    "We confess our little faults to persuade people that we have no large ones." - François de La Rochefoucauld

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                    • #40
                      In Chile the problem is caused primarily by inequality I think.

                      The elites are served best by being able to pay ~20k per year to have their kids be in the elite and not having to compete.

                      The masses are a bit 'stupid' and are protesting the wrong thing (the price). This is sort of common with 'masses' even if the individuals in the mass are not 'stupid'.

                      JM
                      Jon Miller-
                      I AM.CANADIAN
                      GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Destroy all the student debts

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Jon Miller View Post
                          In Chile the problem is caused primarily by inequality I think.

                          The elites are served best by being able to pay ~20k per year to have their kids be in the elite and not having to compete.

                          The masses are a bit 'stupid' and are protesting the wrong thing (the price). This is sort of common with 'masses' even if the individuals in the mass are not 'stupid'.

                          JM
                          this is a very important point. it's all about inequality and a small elite having and retaining control of a country's resources; the best education, the best jobs, control of the government and civil service etc. this has always been the problem in south america, and continues to be so.

                          the masses, as you put it, have been sold a dream of social and economic advance through expensive university education, which of course has not come true, because of the way the system is set up by the elite to perpetuate their control. thus, i think that actions like this are important, because they expose this grotesque farce for what it is and hopefully will encourage people to think about the real reasons for their predicament.
                          "The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.

                          "The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by DinoDoc View Post
                            Why? If it is cost free, that only leads to more people majoring in Ethnic Studies or Basket Weaving who are shocked they can't find a job.
                            It's almost like.... there's this thing called freedom

                            Conservatives love the idea of freedom, but hate when people express it.
                            To us, it is the BEAST.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Sava View Post
                              It's almost like.... there's this thing called freedom

                              Conservatives love the idea of freedom, but hate when people express it.
                              You're free to get a degree in those things, you just can't expect other people to ****ing pay for it.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by regexcellent View Post
                                You're free to get a degree in those things, you just can't expect other people to ****ing pay for it.
                                Yes. Yes, I can. Because it's in society's best interest for people to be educated. As a small business owner, I want my customers to have disposable income.

                                The US is just working through its own political inefficiencies (conservatism) in this matter.

                                Considering our economy is based upon consumer spending, I'm always amazed when conservatives think it would be better if people had less money to spend.
                                To us, it is the BEAST.

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