Greek Fascism

[Sava]

But corporations are making insane profits... so it's worth it.

[C0ckney]

i should probably say a few words about the changing face of the far right. there are still some traditional anti-non white, anti-semitic, 'direct action', potentially revolutionary parties with their roots firmly in fascism, golden dawn in greece and jobbik in hungary would be two examples. however, many far right parties have changed and moderated their message. there is less anti-semitism, and more talk about the threat of 'radical islam'. indeed some parties (in the low countries for example) see jews and israel as allies against 'radical islam'. now these parties talk about freedom of speech (referring for example, to the danish mohamed cartoons and the subsequent death threats), cultural identity, equality of the sexes and other western values which they see as threatened by excessive immigration, and in particular, immigration from muslim countries. in western europe certainly, most have also abandoned openly racist rhetoric, preferring to talk about cultural assimilation, rather than ethnic origin. some have made efforts to distance themselves from racism entirely, which in some cases does appear to be more than cosmetic (for example 14% of the members of the swedish democrats are of immigrant origin, the same ratio as in the general population). they have also, in a broad sense, abandoned the anti-capitalism of their forbears, although of course a 'populist' economic programme is a key part of what most offer. ideologically, this has left many parties with a strange combination of free-market capitalist and 'welfare' policies. however, this inconsistency has clearly not dented their support. this fracturing of ideologies and of course the national context in which these parties operate, has led to a diverse range of far right parties, however there are also common features. you can pretty much guarantee that a party will have: anti-immigrant, anti-muslim, anti-EU (although this also comes in diverse forms) and populist economic policies at the heart of its programme.

[Sava]

i should probably say a few words about the changing face of the far right.

Could you do so utilizing capitalization?

And paragraphs?

[C0ckney]

no i couldn't, but thanks for asking.

[Buster Crabbe's Uncle]

Could you do so utilizing capitalism?

[Sava]

no i couldn't, but thanks for asking.

That's a shame. I find you have intelligent things to say.

But I mostly ignore you because your posts are a chore to read.

[Bereta_Eder]

yep good points cockney.
still for countries like italy and greece where indigenous population is falling through a chasm, it's romantic to talk about a "pure race nation".
lol. the whole system is capitalist based. the whole benefits go to the poorest and those are the immigrants. they get free health care, free education, free nursery care and the rest get nothing. so they don't have kids. it's too expensive.

[Bereta_Eder]

oh well. it has been a good 3000 years ride. let the more powerful go ahead. it happened with the goths and vandals.

[C0ckney]

yep good points cockney.
still for countries like italy and greece where indigenous population is falling through a chasm, it's romantic to talk about a "pure race nation".

some may consider it romantic, however it seems to me that few of the new far right supporters have been won over by this message. those who want a 'pure race nation', were always likely to support the far right anyway. as i said, most far right parties have been moving away from this kind of language in recent years in order to broaden their appeal.

lol. the whole system is capitalist based. the whole benefits go to the poorest and those are the immigrants. they get free health care, free education, free nursery care and the rest get nothing. so they don't have kids. it's too expensive.

this is an argument used by the far right, but not only by them. centre right and 'new right' parties have also adopted this rhetoric, especially in the wake of the crisis, in order to undermine the welfare states and social protections that exist across europe. it's a very old trick, scapegoating the poor or outsiders for economic problems, and sadly, one that seems to work.

[molly bloom]

yep good points cockney.
still for countries like italy and greece where indigenous population is falling through a chasm, it's romantic to talk about a "pure race nation".

The idea of racial purity is so self-evidently stupid given the wave of invasions/migrations that Europe has experienced- Dorians, Celts, Huns, Goths of all sorts, Vandals, Huns, Magyars..

Fascists are such fools.

[Bereta_Eder]

However, there's something I want to say.
I've been thinking about neighborhoods. And let's say crime will vary between neighborhoods, a congested city is a congested city and that's that. ok.

However, there are neighborhoods that are photocopies in what regards urban density.
However, those that have a large immigration do have more crime and they also have more things such as (BTW I accept one can say, that's because of poverty, not because of race - I completely agree).

Let's say you have a kid. And don't have much money.
Greek state says: everything is free. Education, health care etc (the quality of ot... is another issue).

BUT some other things are not free: let's say you are poor. you have automatic right to nursery school (pre-school services for the kid).
Now in central athens nearly ALL of nursery schools are with immigrant kids.
Why? Because the immigrants (being taught by greeks lol) they tax evade like crazy. greeks can't tax evade as effectively.

Greece is muchmore humanitarian in that area from other countries: let's say you're an illegal immigrant. you have no papers, no nothing, but you have the kid. it doesn't matter, the kid automatically gets, free nursery school, free school, free health care (you too) etc etc

So let's say there's a poor greek or legal immigrant. Let's even say he tax evades. the illegal immigrant still will get the place in the nursery school.
So little greekies or legal immigrant greekies, they get thrown out! There's no free nursery school for them and they dont have the money to pay for one!!!


an all sorts of such pathogenies like that.
for people who advocate an unchecked unlimited immigration (there are such people), how do they justify that at one neighborhood, their kids can be at a nearly all greek school (which increases learning speed) get free nursery (ok everyone gets free health).

And if you're in another beighborhood, there is fear (because there is some petty crime) and your kids is hugely disadvantaged by the state structures and institutions!

The only solution is to move!!!
WHy move from a neighborhood, you maybe love?
Isn't the people who advocate uncontrolled immigration simply the most cut-throat capitalistic people? money defines everything?
there is a coleration between so called ultra humanitarians and cutthroat capitalists.

bare in mind that this model where money defines everything is abhorent for huge segments of populations in many countries. (jungle law)

[C0ckney]

Isn't the people who advocate uncontrolled immigration simply the most cut-throat capitalistic people? money defines everything?
there is a coleration between so called ultra humanitarians and cutthroat capitalists.

well as marx rightly said:

The main purpose of the bourgeois in relation to the worker is, of course, to have the commodity labour as cheaply as possible, which is only possible when the supply of this commodity is as large as possible in relation to the demand for it

big business loves mass immigration because they want a cheap, insecure, and pliant labour force.

however some have different motives for wanting free movement. i, for example, believe in free movement, because i don't believe in borders, or states at all, for that matter.

Now in central athens nearly ALL of nursery schools are with immigrant kids.
Why? Because the immigrants (being taught by greeks lol) they tax evade like crazy. greeks can't tax evade as effectively.

Greece is muchmore humanitarian in that area from other countries: let's say you're an illegal immigrant. you have no papers, no nothing, but you have the kid. it doesn't matter, the kid automatically gets, free nursery school, free school, free health care (you too) etc etc

So let's say there's a poor greek or legal immigrant. Let's even say he tax evades. the illegal immigrant still will get the place in the nursery school.
So little greekies or legal immigrant greekies, they get thrown out! There's no free nursery school for them and they dont have the money to pay for one!!!

while i accept that you probably know more about the local situation in greece than i do, this seems very flimsy. when the authorities have to collect new taxes through, for example, through electricity bills, so that it actually gets paid, it suggests very strongly that many greeks evade taxes. even if we accept, for the sake of argument, that immigrants evade taxes more than greeks, this can easily be explained by the fact that immigrants are more likely to work in the informal economy than natives. this is because of the dire formal employment situation and the obstacles which immigrants face in the labour market (lack of education, language barriers, discrimination etc.).

[Bereta_Eder]

"big business loves mass immigration because they want a cheap, insecure, and pliant labour force. "

Thanks Cockney. That is my opinion as well (funny marx had even that covered).
I also suspect that the main political parties fully embrace this approach, while at the same time giving lip service about doing the opposite.


"this can easily be explained by the fact that immigrants are more likely to work in the informal economy than natives. this is because of the dire formal employment situation and the obstacles which immigrants face in the labour market (lack of education, language barriers, discrimination etc.). "

that is exactly the case. immigrants usually work in low skill jjobs where tax evading technicques are "awesome". Bare in mind the tax evading can't be done unless the employer is also a complicit and many times he is a native.

The way I see it, is that they are creating warehouses of human misery in certain neighborhoods from which to "draw" cheap labor force whenever they please.

[Bereta_Eder]

Also I'd add that there is a lot of critisism about the EU. Knowing how it works,it becomes very apparent that following neoliberal economic policies is institutionalized by now. That's community law right there.
It is leading to a very sizeable destruction and misery in a lot of countries.
However, the reason I think many people still "believe" in the EU is that they take the "core" of it (namely, a europe for the people, with peace etc) and think that they can "change" the current orientation the EU has taken.
That is very difficult because a very specific economic model is by now ingrained in community law and the very way EU isntitutions function (among those, the commission competition directorate, the EU court etc).

It will either change or it will collapse eventually, because the financial pain of the people will make it impossible to stay in it.
As a prime example (that's often used) is Bulgaria.
It is an EU country. It's finances are the IMF's wet dream. Their debt is very controlled, their spending is in order. They are 100% OK by troika standars. And people there don't have enough money to pay for electricity.
Troika and the whole program etc mean nothing to the people.

Unless there is a betterment of conditions (all over the south, although even the north isn't immune to all of that) the EU "dream" will simply become unsustainable.
It is still very far off though (unless these things happen isntantly and take everyone by surprise. I wouldn't know. I don't know of an historic precedent).

[C0ckney]

i broadly agree with that. the EU/toika's actions during the crisis make no sense if you think that their purpose was to improve people's lives and cushion ordinary people from the effects of the crisis. they do, however, make perfect sense, if you think that their purpose was to save the euro and the european banking system. this has been done, at least for now, at the expense of the people of southern europe (although not exclusively, workers everywhere have suffered as certain forces have used the crisis to attack wages, rights and social protections). the EU is an elite project, in thrall to big business and distant from the people. this distance is becoming greater as time goes on and centralisation increases.

i thought greece had a chance, through syriza (although when/if they come to power, i suspect they will turn out to be another group of limp social democrats, with a thin veneer of radical language; hopefully they'll prove me wrong), to find an alternative route. however, that didn't happen, greece kept the euro and its people will continue to suffer the consequences, but the banks are safe and there'll be lots of fabulous opportunities for multinationals to buy up greek state assets at very cheap prices... it's genuinely hard to see how greece can improve its situation, while remaining in the euro and thus taking orders from the troika.