Our scuzzy third president

[Ban Kenobi]

And that Jefferson started the affair shortly after viewing a painting of Sarah presenting Hagar to Abraham?

See? More proof that religion is evil.

[Elok]

Yeah, that ol' Jefferson sure was a religious fanatic.

Yes, our esteemed Founding Fathers were a bunch of slave-owning rapists and murderers who only became Founding Fathers because they didn't want to pay their taxes.

Politicians are horrible, horrible people, little better than criminals. It has always been thus.

I've only started digging into the history, and while they all seem at least a little repulsive, Jefferson stands out. I'm reading an extremely sympathetic biography right now, and every third page the author has to say something like, "while his contemporaries, and most historians, found this behavior deeply hypocritical, he was really just being pragmatic." Kind of like, "she wasn't a hooker, she was a sexual gratification services consultant." I'm going to check out Hamilton next, it sounds like they were sort of mirror images. In that they were both vicious hyperpartisans, sexually aggressive, and furthered their respective causes by means we would label treasonous today.

[kentonio]

In that they were both vicious hyperpartisans, sexually aggressive, and furthered their respective causes by means we would label treasonous today.

So they were politicians then?

[Elok]

Oh, and the taxes? They were mostly to pay for the very expensive defense of our vast frontier. We were a money-pit. They tried to lessen the cost by making a deal with various Indians that we would stop encroaching on their land, but that just made us angry and they had limited power to enforce it. So taxes it was. Which New Englanders circumvented by operating very profitable smuggling enterprises. Then got angry when the Brits cracked down on smuggling. Also, Southern landowners felt that their British agents were cheating them when they bought expensive foreign goods to ship across the Atlantic. Because that was better than admitting that their lifestyle was impractical and unsustainable. Finally, when trouble did break out Gov. Dunmore of VA offered freedom to any slaves and indentured servants who would rally to his aid. Outrageous.

Now, if we'd just had representation, they could have been fairly outvoted every time a new tax was proposed.

[Sava]

One thing about the "founders" is that they knew how to deal with anti-tax anti-government nutbags.

The Whiskey Rebellion.

Can you imagine if Obama sent troops to Wall Street to collect unpaid taxes by corporate America?

Now that would be awesome

[Guynemer]

Can you imagine if Obama sent troops to Wall Street to collect unpaid taxes by corporate America?

Well, thanks Sava, now I can't get up from my desk lest everyone in the office think I'm a pervert.

[Sava]

liberalboners

[pchang]

Well, thanks Sava, now I can't get up from my desk lest everyone in the office think I'm a pervert.

I can see that would be extremely awkward in a pediatric practice.....

[Lorizael]

I'm going to check out Hamilton next, it sounds like they were sort of mirror images. In that they were both vicious hyperpartisans, sexually aggressive, and furthered their respective causes by means we would label treasonous today.

Alexander Hamilton was my second girlfriend's favorite historical figure. She called him "Lexi."

[molly bloom]

Yeah, that ol' Jefferson sure was a religious fanatic.



I've only started digging into the history, and while they all seem at least a little repulsive, Jefferson stands out. I'm reading an extremely sympathetic biography right now, and every third page the author has to say something like, "while his contemporaries, and most historians, found this behavior deeply hypocritical, he was really just being pragmatic." Kind of like, "she wasn't a hooker, she was a sexual gratification services consultant." I'm going to check out Hamilton next, it sounds like they were sort of mirror images. In that they were both vicious hyperpartisans, sexually aggressive, and furthered their respective causes by means we would label treasonous today.

His slaves were usually happy when Jefferson returned home, because he was gentler with them than his managers. Jefferson in his private thoughts and writings was aware of the hypocrisy and believed that the institution of slavery in the U.S. would lead to discord.

Still he also wrote Virginia's statute on religious freedom... which is why modern day atheists respect him.

Then got angry when the Brits cracked down on smuggling.

They were also trading with the French in the Caribbean- even when the British Empire (which they were still a part of) was at war. Ungrateful ? Hmmm...

[Elok]

His (and his fellow anti-Federalists') fear of standing armies made the Revolution take twice as long as it needed to.

[molly bloom]

His (and his fellow anti-Federalists') fear of standing armies made the Revolution take twice as long as it needed to.

And how much does that standing army cost you now ?

[Elok]

And how much does that standing army cost you now ?

Fair enough--but bear in mind that the militia mentality is the main reason we have the Second Amendment. Pointless wars or shot-up malls and preschools, take your pick. And it's not like the Founders' conception of a militia would be even remotely practical today.

[molly bloom]

Fair enough--but bear in mind that the militia mentality is the main reason we have the Second Amendment. Pointless wars or shot-up malls and preschools, take your pick. And it's not like the Founders' conception of a militia would be even remotely practical today.

We had the army rule here back in the 17th Century- the Major Generals' regime was not an unmitigated success. You might find this book of interest :

http://www.history.ac.uk/ihr/Focus/War/reviews/revhuttonr.html

Your country seems to have been much readier in modern days at any rate, to use the National Guard/Army to either break up strikes or actually kill workers and strikers.

It does seem a curious outcome for a revolution supposedly about achieving freedoms from various different forms of tyranny- religious, political, economic...

[kentonio]

Fair enough--but bear in mind that the militia mentality is the main reason we have the Second Amendment. Pointless wars or shot-up malls and preschools, take your pick. And it's not like the Founders' conception of a militia would be even remotely practical today.

No, you just ended up with the worst of both worlds.